Soaking Aggravated Damage (Vampire)

Kasimir Stanislavich:

According to the rules Grappling is a STR+Brawl test. So not only can they do big amounts of damage with a bite, they also can immobilize the victim easily with the automatic successes of the discipli

Didn't I read some discussion some time back (several months) regarding if Potence would gain automatic successes in STR+Brawl or just additional dice; the whole automatic success on all STR related actions or just for Damage/Lifting things?

I'm still curious how you deal with the "additional damage dice for successes"

Demon Cat:

Our houserule: Firearms Do Lethal.  It just makes more sense, given the wounds they inflict.  Downgrading their damage to bashing always struck me as an effort to melee weapons and bare-handed brawling more viable in comparison, and it felt forced.

On a passing glance, I would aggree with you on this, but if one looks just a bit deeper into it, it makes sence that guns only do bashing to vamps.

If a vampire gets his liver hit with a bullet, oh well.  Lungs, arteries, or even the heart (which was not beating anyway) as long as the heart is not impailed with wood then it realy does not matter.  I can see an argument for hollow points or "liquid" bullets, but bullets are ment to cause dammage to vital organs, vains and artires, all of wich don't really matter to a Vamp.

Mellee weapons on the other hand ar ment to sever large parts of the body, cut and sever mussel and conective tissue.  Even if a vamp does not need his liver, he still needs his mussels to move.  I can see that a small knife, like a switch blade, could be seen as not needing to be leathal because it is so small, but that would just pile lots of rules fast if each individual weapon had its own dammage rules and types.

I understand why your group wouold make a house rule like this, and on some level I agree with it, but I like the bashing dammage rule my self

genty:

Didn't I read some discussion some time back (several months) regarding if Potence would gain automatic successes in STR+Brawl or just additional dice; the whole automatic success on all STR related actions or just for Damage/Lifting things?

I'm still curious how you deal with the "additional damage dice for successes"

Here I come, back from the dead, the dea-HOLYCRAP!

http://forums.white-wolf.com/cs/forums/t/2325.aspx?PageIndex=1

http://forums.white-wolf.com/cs/forums/t/4326.aspx?PageIndex=2

And a whole bunch of threads from the previous set of forums that have been lost.

Hasn't been resolved yet, although it's one hell of an entertaining discussion and it's certain to provide enough information and diverse perspectives for anyone looking at making a ruling to feel that the subject has been thoroughly examined. Then just pick the side you personally thought was the most convincing.

Loxosceles:

genty:

Didn't I read some discussion some time back (several months) regarding if Potence would gain automatic successes in STR+Brawl or just additional dice; the whole automatic success on all STR related actions or just for Damage/Lifting things?

I'm still curious how you deal with the "additional damage dice for successes"

Here I come, back from the dead, the dea-HOLYCRAP!

http://forums.white-wolf.com/cs/forums/t/2325.aspx?PageIndex=1

http://forums.white-wolf.com/cs/forums/t/4326.aspx?PageIndex=2

And a whole bunch of threads from the previous set of forums that have been lost.

Hasn't been resolved yet, although it's one hell of an entertaining discussion and it's certain to provide enough information and diverse perspectives for anyone looking at making a ruling to feel that the subject has been thoroughly examined. Then just pick the side you personally thought was the most convincing.

Loxosceles gets two penalty points for bringing up that HORRID discussion... ;)

Anywho...

Yeah, the soak thing really seems to be a matter of personal game/story setting for a number of people.  Most of my friends and I always took the "conservative" view on it; that is, we always followed the idea that most kindred characters didn't often have powers outside their usual perview (which was often indicated for PC development, though lord knows most NPCs seemed to have umpteen disciplines, but I digress...).  In that regard, Gangrel having aggravated damage at Protean 2 wasn't such a huge deal-breaker, as it was one of their "tricks-of-the-trade", similar to how the Ventrue were undisputed masters of the social/mortal control "schtick", having Dominate and Presence, or the Brujah having mega-whoopass potential with Potence and Celerity, or the Malkavians being masters of the mind, with Auspex, Dominate (Dementation), and Obfuscate, et al.  If players/STs stay focused on the simple combat applications of the game, ignoring the other 90% of the setting/situations, then it may well play out that powers inflicting aggravated damage may seem "unbalanced", but it really isn't when the broader view is taken. 

As far as the used of Fortitude, much as was posted by others above (and in other threads/forums), many people seemed to have house-ruled alot about it, even if only situationally; groups I played with had long ago did what the NWoD has done, allowing blood to fuel Fortitude for greater effects (temporary health levels, downgrading damage, etc.).  But we had different rules for different settings and storylines, so it really was a golden rule situation, with story trumping game mechanics... as it always should :)

As far as the successes applying to damage, that wasn't an issue unless people really munchkined out.  Yeah.  I know.  That happens quite alot in gaming.  But for us, it wasn't often a problem 'cus we didn't care about min-maxing in a storytelling game, and in the instances where huge dice pools resulted, it was appropriate to the circumstances/beings that had them, and players were appropriately fearful/apprehensive, though not from dice pools, but rather the story/character represented by them.

Just my random opinion...

What?  We're worried about claws and teeth doing agg damage that a vampire can die from in a few rounds?

1.: The lupine approaches with his claws and teeth out.

2.: Vampire pulls out assault rifle with silver bullets and fires.

3.: The lupine takes several hits and dies.  The end.  So much for that agg. damage.

Even against a Gangrel, emptying a clip into one will not go well for the Gangrel.  Even if it doesn't kill her, it will force her to use blood and reduce her die pools and ability to get close enough to cause that nasty agg damage.

Unholy Pilgrim:

What?  We're worried about claws and teeth doing agg damage that a vampire can die from in a few rounds?

1.: The lupine approaches with his claws and teeth out.

2.: Vampire pulls out assault rifle with silver bullets and fires.

3.: The lupine takes several hits and dies.  The end.  So much for that agg. damage.

Even against a Gangrel, emptying a clip into one will not go well for the Gangrel.  Even if it doesn't kill her, it will force her to use blood and reduce her die pools and ability to get close enough to cause that nasty agg damage.

I agree, but the only flaw with shooting the Gangrel is that the damage is bashing and then you divide the damage in half.  Now if you had a flame thrower, explosive rounds,  or aimed for the head, it would work perfectly.

I'll be honest, none of my characters walk around carrying assault rifles. The police tend to take a dim view of such things. But a silver fish fork and a dot or two of potence should sort out Mr Lupine. As for the Gangrel... good luck!

Hellweaver:

I'll be honest, none of my characters walk around carrying assault rifles. The police tend to take a dim view of such things. But a silver fish fork and a dot or two of potence should sort out Mr Lupine. As for the Gangrel... good luck!

It had better be pure silver and you better put him down before he Frenzies.

WolfMan86:

It had better be pure silver and you better put him down before he Frenzies.

I hope so too!! To be honest, fighting Lupines is a bad idea. They start out way more combat heavy than Kindred and tend to trounce them in fair fights. My characters tend to avoid 'Lupine alley' areas of the city.

Loxosceles:

Of the thirteen major clans presented in VtM and Dark Ages, only two (offhand, correct me if I am wrong) of them have the potential to deal convenient aggravated damage at character creation using the default creation rules and allowances based on the in-clan discipline spread.

Gangrel using Protean rank two... And Assamites using Quietus rank two.

The Gangrel pay one blood to pop the claws, which basically last until canceled.

The Assamites pay blood per attack they want to make, which is consumed each time damage is dealt.

Followers of Set (Serpentis 2) add to that list, and a lot cheaper too.

Hellweaver:

WolfMan86:

It had better be pure silver and you better put him down before he Frenzies.

I hope so too!! To be honest, fighting Lupines is a bad idea. They start out way more combat heavy than Kindred and tend to trounce them in fair fights. My characters tend to avoid 'Lupine alley' areas of the city.

Which makes perfect sense!  But the Vampires have a greater variety of powers and when they lower their generation, they can be bad ass.

WolfMan86:

But the Vampires have a greater variety of powers

Not sure I agree on that part, when you start looking in the tribe books and outside the corebook, gifts really come into their own on broad effects. That and the Fianna Gift list, love the fey oriented gifts.