Retry penalty - and combat

Taken from deathmatchfm's post: http://forums.white-wolf.com/cs/forums/t/15484.aspx?PageIndex=2

I noticed this as weird too.  I've never used this and it seems like it would quickly break combat.

EzekielReigns:

I noticed this as weird too.  I've never used this and it seems like it would quickly break combat.

Retry penalty is a DRAMATIC rule not a combat rule.

JiveX:

Retry penalty is a DRAMATIC rule not a combat rule.

*raises eyebrow*  I know this which is why I don't use it in combat.  It's probably the caps but it doesn't seem to me that you notice we are agreeing on the topic.  Maybe you just used it for emphasis though.

JiveX:

Retry penalty is a DRAMATIC rule not a combat rule.

EzekielReigns:

JiveX:

Retry penalty is a DRAMATIC rule not a combat rule.

*raises eyebrow*  I know this which is why I don't use it in combat.  It's probably the caps but it doesn't seem to me that you notice we are agreeing on the topic.  Maybe you just used it for emphasis though.

Lol I meant to only capitalize the 'D' capslock snafu, my bad! :-)

JiveX:

Lol I meant to only capitalize the 'D' capslock snafu, my bad! :-)

That makes sense.  I dont post much but I lurk often and you are always polite.

JiveX:

Retry penalty is a DRAMATIC rule not a combat rule.

I never saw anything that said it was a dramatic rule.  Actually, the way it's worded, it makes sense that it would apply to combat.  After somebody continually parries with HGD, you'd get frustrated at trying to get past their defense.

molez:

Which is what I thought. I think it is the reason that Deathmatchfm sees the charm he is discussing as useful and everyone else sees it as not doing enough. I just thought it was odd that nobody else picked up on the retry comment of his about PDs.

I always applied them.  Even if you parry like normal (not Charm enhanced) and they miss, it's supposed to invoke the retry penalty.  The only thing about perfects is that it's a sure way to frustrate your opponent since they don't have a chance of hitting.  Obviously, this penalty wouldn't apply to damage, but a continual defense does get harder to break because they get into a rythem and the attacker's strategy doesn't work.  Granted, the retry penalty should have a limitation.  Though you could theoretically impose a -10 penalty, I've never seen it higher than -4 successes.

deathmatchfm:

I always applied them.  Even if you parry like normal (not Charm enhanced) and they miss, it's supposed to invoke the retry penalty.  The only thing about perfects is that it's a sure way to frustrate your opponent since they don't have a chance of hitting.  Obviously, this penalty wouldn't apply to damage, but a continual defense does get harder to break because they get into a rythem and the attacker's strategy doesn't work.  Granted, the retry penalty should have a limitation.  Though you could theoretically impose a -10 penalty, I've never seen it higher than -4 successes.

deathmatchfm:

fter somebody continually parries with HGD, you'd get frustrated at trying to get past their defense.

This is acomplished via multiple action penalty.  The fact that the retry penalty never comes up in the combat system but all other relevant penalties do should be a hint :-)

Yup, the multiple action penalty as well as the onslaught penalty handle flurries quite well for combat. You don't need to bring in the retry penalty unless you want to double penalize your attacking players.

Raeth

deathmatchfm:

JiveX:

Retry penalty is a DRAMATIC rule not a combat rule.

I never saw anything that said it was a dramatic rule.  Actually, the way it's worded, it makes sense that it would apply to combat.  After somebody continually parries with HGD, you'd get frustrated at trying to get past their defense.

Since it's listed as both an external penalty and without limit, I'd say it applies only to non-combat actions.  There's also no time limit specified for it, so if you want to work it RAW then if I have an abyssal turn up and PD you 10 times and run away, do the same thing tomorrow, and the day after then suddenly you don't have the capacity to hit him anymore because he's dodged you for a -30 successes worth of penalty on your attacks.  It's Zeal only slightly watered down.  This would also completely nerf flurries for getting past high DV.  First attack! Did I get through? no, his DV is too high.  okay, I lose a sucess and he loses a DV, repeat for the rest of the flurry. and take a huge ongoing penalty for the rest of your attacks.

The exact reading for retry penalty, the bolded text at least, says "she generally accrues a -1 successes external penalty to the attempt due to frustration, and to simulate the fact that the character has allready tried the obvious solutions."  Combat is a little different from a math problem.  Plus come on, combat is really more a set of resisted rolls then a single action.

Odd_Canuck:

Since it's listed as both an external penalty and without limit, I'd say it applies only to non-combat actions.  There's also no time limit specified for it, so if you want to work it RAW then if I have an abyssal turn up and PD you 10 times and run away, do the same thing tomorrow, and the day after then suddenly you don't have the capacity to hit him anymore because he's dodged you for a -30 successes worth of penalty on your attacks.  It's Zeal only slightly watered down.  This would also completely nerf flurries for getting past high DV.  First attack! Did I get through? no, his DV is too high.  okay, I lose a sucess and he loses a DV, repeat for the rest of the flurry. and take a huge ongoing penalty for the rest of your attacks.

Worse yet, since DV is an abstraction of a defense roll, every time you get hit, your DV against the guy who hit you drops permanently. Now I'll go on and make a cheap Charm that perfectly hits you with a touch attack that does nothing and can't be comboed with other Touch attack Charms and spam you with it until you get a -30 on your DVs against my future attacks.

No. Each attack and each defense is a different action, not a re-attempt on the same action. That's all there is to it.