Retry penalty - and combat

I... what?


No. The retry penalty does not apply to combat.

I.... what? Gah.

In my defense, nothing hinted that it didn't apply to combat.  Even with common sense, after over two years of playing it hasn't become a serious issue in my game.

Morangias:

Worse yet, since DV is an abstraction of a defense roll, every time you get hit, your DV against the guy who hit you drops permanently. Now I'll go on and make a cheap Charm that perfectly hits you with a touch attack that does nothing and can't be comboed with other Touch attack Charms and spam you with it until you get a -30 on your DVs against my future attacks.

Gods forbid someone uses one of the thrown charms that makes near-infinite numbers of the thrown weapons... missing with a thousand dagger strike, imaging the suffering of a -1000 penalty... ugh.

That's ok, but really combining the retry penalty with the internal multiple action penalties is sort of a nightmare.

Chaka:

That's ok, but really combining the retry penalty with the internal multiple action penalties is sort of a nightmare.

I always envisoned an entire flurry as an attempt at attacking, and even if you missed with seven attacks and the eight hit, the flurry itself was still a success and there wouldn't be any additional penalty.  But if you flurry, miss, next action you flurry, miss, etc, then you'd slowly have a higher penalty.

deathmatchfm:

In my defense, nothing hinted that it didn't apply to combat.  Even with common sense, after over two years of playing it hasn't become a serious issue in my game.

Either your games are very lethal or they don't last more then a turns...

Plus it completely invalidates the idea of that character who just needs one good hit.  Now if he doesn't get that hit in on the first round or two he is never going to get it in.

Retry Penalty is not combat rule.  No idea why anyone would want to apply it to Combat.  Combat inherently means you will miss alot, and missing would actually make it easier for you to succeed on the next attack (hence the Onslaught Penalty).

Karamethien:

Retry Penalty is not combat rule.  No idea why anyone would want to apply it to Combat.  Combat inherently means you will miss alot, and missing would actually make it easier for you to succeed on the next attack (hence the Onslaught Penalty).

To apply Retry Penalty will counter your Onslaught Penalty - because every attack in the flurry is another "try".

Gotta be fair to DM here, as much as I really hate the idea.  I went back to look for the line that says, "this does not apply in combat."  That line has been in every RPG I've played before which included a "frustration factor" (including those from WW), so I assumed it must be there.

Maybe it is, but I'm not seeing it.  So while we can rationally assume such a passage was intended, its failure to be present means DM isn't TECHNICALLY wrong.

Interestingly, it makes non-chained perfects a reasonable thing.  You just perfect to get going, then you're set.  No, I will not run it this way though.  Just pointing it out.

BogMod:

Either your games are very lethal or they don't last more then a turns...

Plus it completely invalidates the idea of that character who just needs one good hit.  Now if he doesn't get that hit in on the first round or two he is never going to get it in.

That isn't exactly true.  The only time the penalty got bad was up to -4 I think.  The player declared he was taking an aim action to try a new method of attack, as well as calm down after so many attempted failures.  Since he was letting up on his relentless onslaught, I decided that it removed the thus far accumulated external penalty.  Naturally, it gave him a bonus for aiming, and he got stunt dice for describing the new method of attack.

In combat, the retry penalty is there to penalize those who will pound and pound and pound at the same person without taking into account their attacks aren't hitting, as well as the enemy getting used to dodging the same old thing.  It only takes a guard action, aim action, or well described stunt to either calm down and focus on a new way to hit, or to attack in such a way that it gives him back the advantage.  Clearly, I would limit this penalty at some point, but since I haven't put much thought to what that limit would be.

Lord Darkview:

Maybe it is, but I'm not seeing it.  So while we can rationally assume such a passage was intended, its failure to be present means DM isn't TECHNICALLY wrong.

It's just heavily implied that I'm wrong.

Oddly enough, the "apply retry penalty in combat" thing seems appropriate for a MA charm.

bluenigma:

Oddly enough, the "apply retry penalty in combat" thing seems appropriate for a MA charm.

Not really sure what you mean there.  I don't think that the retry penalty should have anything to do with Charms, other than avoiding it. 

Or did you mean "if the attack misses count the retry penalty twice"?

As for a maximum for the penalty, it'd probably be something like (6 - Temperance) to determine how frustrated a character can become.

Well, I'm playing games where we don't apply the retry penalty. And the charm would probably end up being "for each consecutive successful dodge/parry (depending on what the MA is focused around)" receive +1 to DV, subject to the normal limits. Which probably already is a charm, I'm not sure. Sorry, it was just a random thought.

But on-topic, I have to agree with everyone else. There's no reason to tilt the system even more in favor of perfect turtling. And it doesn't make sense to get frustrated by repeated misses when Exalted combat revolves around running the enemy out of motes rather than health levels.

Lord Darkview:

Gotta be fair to DM here, as much as I really hate the idea.  I went back to look for the line that says, "this does not apply in combat."  That line has been in every RPG I've played before which included a "frustration factor" (including those from WW), so I assumed it must be there.

I couldn't see it either that's why I said it's one of those RAW things I'm going to ignore, like being able to dodge falling damage or parry a social attack.

deathmatchfm:

In my defense, nothing hinted that it didn't apply to combat.  Even with common sense, after over two years of playing it hasn't become a serious issue in my game.

All of the OWoD games had the retry penalty and in all of them, there was a line that it did not apply to combat.

For the people who have been playing White Wolf games for almost 20 years, the thought that the retry penalty applying to combat will never make sense.

If there is not a line about it not applying to combat, that was more than likely a mistake.  White Wolf has never and would never have the retry penalty apply to combat.

You may view your interpretation of the retry penalty has "valid", but I fairly sure most people feel and will continue to think that the interpretation of the retry penalty not applying to combat as more "valid" and nothing you say quote or do will came peoples minds in that regard. No one else will be using your interpretation.

In terms of rules by RAW, the assumption will be that the penalty does not apply to combat.
If you wish to have a discussion of rules by RAW, you'll need to understand, that no one agrees with your take on the retry penalty.

edit:

An other way to view "The Exalted Core book does not have a line saying "retry penalty" does not apply to combay.

Either:
A) It is not suppose to be there, because for Exalted the Retry penalty does apply to combat.

OR

B) It isn't there because the forgot to put it in. It is suppose to be there and the rules are written under the assumption that the "retry penalty" does not apply to combat, but the line making it clear, for whatever reason didn't make it in the book.

I find B, much more likely than A.

Also, if the "retry penalty" applied to combat, I would think that while going over combat options, that they would bring it up. No example of combat in Exalted, I've ever seen, whether in a book or written on the internet, has including "retry penalty" to combat.