Question about Hedgespun weapons

I would apreciate some sort of "oficial" reply in clearing this up,as the speculation of other players really wont be of much help,interpretation\opinion being what it is.((staff or developers.))

Are the properties\bonus that you get from hedgespinning a weapon added to whatever base weapon template you are creating or are they the base values themselves? say if you want to make a hedgespun Axe,will it have to automatically start at 2+ dots just to match the same stats as it´s mundane counterpart,or you can make a one dot version to add a bonus to the weapon template?

As I understand the section on hedgespun weapons in Rites of Spring (p143), a hedgespun weapon gains a +1 equipment bonus over its mundane counterpart, and an additional +1 per two dots spent toward increasing the equipment bonus.  So a 2-dot hedgespun sword could have a total equipment bonus of 5 (3 base for a sword + 1 for being hedgespun + 1 for having two dots).

Of course, the weapon could alternatively (not additionally) add to the character's Defense, add to the weapon's Durability, reduce the Durability of objects against which the weapon is used, or be poisonous.  By my understanding of these rules, the +1 equipment bonus for simply being hedgespun would still apply, but otherwise dots would have to be spent on each of these different qualities (including the additional equipment bonuses) separately.

Yes,thats how i see it too,but i have this problem with a guy STíng who insists thats not what the book says...so i figure instead of arguing back and forth,i get the facts from the truly undisputable source: the guys who made the game.

How is your Storyteller interpreting the rules?  They seem fairly straightforward to me (though some of the wording could be better)...

he sees it that any and all HS weapons start at 1 dot damage\ durability and  you need the remaining HS dots to add the rest. completly ignoring the base weapon template\stats, so a spear would be a 3 dot HS weapon minimun for instance,to match the stats on the mundane template. four ot five to make it special. i beleive you can see how absurd  this is? but nothing short of an oficial saying would make him acknowledge it isnt so.

I solved this problem by starting all weapons from scratch, but building them with the discounts from the weapons template in Slashers, meaning that if a weapon was bigger, such as a spear, it would be cheaper to have it do high damage than it would be for a dagger.

Im not interested in house-rule solution, just in oficial confirmation on how it actually is or not,Shining Paladin. they ought to have provided an example or something.

Unfortunately, you probably won't get an official conformation here, as most of the people on this forum are not writers.  I suppose that you have already tried pointing out that his interpretation doesn't really make any sense, as with the spear example that you gave?

he´s of the "youre wrong,im the ST here." school of arguing.

Okay. Just my little interpretation. I agree that your ST in this case is wrong as best as I can tell from what you're saying. Quoting from the book and pointing things out might help. Maybe this will help.

"A Hedgespun weapon starts off with a +1 equipment
bonus, and its lethality is determined by the type
of weapon (a maul made of an Ogre’s skull does bashing,
a rapier whose blade is a lacquered dragon’s tongue
is clearly lethal)."

*I get from this that on 'any' hedgespun weapon, it automatically gets a +1 bonus for being hedgespun. Of course, weapon type determines the type of damage (bashing, lethal, aggrivated)

"Dots purchased in a Hedgespun token weapon could
go toward the following:"

*Lists all the things you could put the dots purchased to go towards. But from the ST's in my domain and those that I talk to, it adds to the existing weapon template, not creating a new one. I don't think anything out there completely replaces the template. Don't take what I say as being absolutely true. I'm just going by what those around me have said and what I'm reading in the book. It would be nice if they clarified that in the book. But considering they use a lot of language like "Adding to the equipment bonus" and "add to..." It gives the sense that You're using points in what you buy to 'add' stuff to something that already exists. It makes sense to have it that way. Otherwise, having a hedgespun item would cost more than it should. Or rather, it doesn't quite make sense for the template to be with this weapon, it would be a 3-dot item, but this one can be a 1-dot item. Hedgespinning is something that's added to the template so you can have a 1-dot HS item of any type, or a 2-dot HS item of any type. That makes more sense to me. But again, just 'read' what is there and come up with it yourself.

See,thats the thing,i also think your interpretation is what the book means,but they prefer to look at "starts off with a +1 equipement bonus" as being the base stats for a hedgespun weapon. wich is absurd!

you cannot have a one dot hedgespun sword because it would be impossible to build one like that. and what is mechanically an ordinary spear has to be a 3 dot hedgespun item,at least. not very impressive or logical,is it? "you will undergo a dangerous quest to obtain a wood pole with a sharp blade on top of it,oooooooh."

Its mostly the ST´s enforcing their idea of "balance" by making any and all weaponry so expensive to the point where you dont even bother to ask for any hedgespun anyway,but not wanting to admit to it, just says "its what the book says."

Alas,nothing short of an oficial statement will make him budge. and i so want to prove him wrong.

I have a sneaking suspicion that your ST is right. As a rule, the Hedgespun Merits in that book are not terribly powerful (Hedgespun Automatons are similarly low-tier) - it seems as though their purpose is primarily to have that social bonus for having amazing-looking things, rather than a massive equipment bonus. I played using the rules the way you read them, and didn't have any problems, but that's just experience rather than anything official.

If you can, try to convince him to split the difference. Have the base cost of a Hedgespun item be equal to its Resources rating, and every dot above that adds equipment bonuses. This will resolve what is presumably his main concern - taking extremely expensive weapons and armor for one dot, and then getting large upgrades - while still making it so that a hedgespun weapon isn't automatically weaker than its mundane counterpart. It also gives you a good baseline for what mortals will think the weapon does.

Im sorry Yeti,that doesnt really help at all., there is no room for any type of bargaining here. he sticks to "this is how it is in the books,period". isnt isnt about XP cost,as Hedgespun can be crafted by the changelings.

"higher power" items have the issue of rare ingredients required as well as crafting roll difficulties...or just plainconsequences of owning something that´s a magnet for attention,the usual rule of escalation,etc.

Esc1979:

isnt isnt about XP cost,as Hedgespun can be crafted by the changelings.

Just because a character can craft a hedgespun item doesn't mean he doesn't still have to pay XP for it.  Even things purchased in Goblin Markets are generally paid for in XP.  Putting in the effort to make a hedgespun item only means that you get exactly what you want rather than relying on what's available.  You still have to pay the XP for it if you want the Merit.  And actually, since XP generally represents time spent working to improve oneself -- working out to increase Physical Attributes, studying to improve Mental Skills, etc. -- the effort put into creating hedgespun items represents the expenditure of XP rather than replacing it.

ST may, of course, hand out dots for free.  But in my chronicles, any dots I hand out based on circumstance can be taken away just as easily.  Dots purchased with XP are assumed to be maintained by the character -- e.g. keeping in touch with Contacts, fulfilling any obligations required by Status, going to work and watching ones finances to maintain Resources, etc. -- so those dots are less likely to be lost unless the character takes actions that put them in jeopardy.  But while I might give a character some free dots for finding a hedgespun item, I wouldn't hand out dots for something the character works to gain, as that is simply the roleplaying side of XP.

EDIT:  This is from CtL p.203, the Hedgespun Rainment Merit:

Hedgespun clothes can also be crafted by the Lost, not simply discovered. This requires an appropriate Crafts roll, and must be performed in the Hedge. The changeling must make a small donation of her own energy to “finish” the garment (represented by the experience cost.)

EDIT:  After a closer reading of the bit in RoS and further consideration, I think I'm going to have to change my interpretation.  It looks like a 1-dot hedgespun is indeed intended to only have a +1 equipment bonus, with the type of damage dealt determined by the type of weapon, as Yeti said.  However, I personally feel this is a bit wimpy for a Token.  What I'm going to rule for my future chronicles is that the +1 for being a hedgespun weapon is automatic and doesn't require any dots, and each dot can be devoted to a different attribute.  So a hedgespun sword with the same stats as a mundane sword would be a 2-dot Token (+1 for being hedgespun, +2 for two dots devoted to equipment bonus).  So a hedgespun sword would require a 2-dot Merit, while a mundane sword could be purchased with 3 dots of Resources -- but those 3 dots of Resources could be used to purchase any number of other items, which is appropriate IMO, as an item purchased with a devoted Merit should be quite a bit better than an item that could be purchased with an equal number of dots of Resources.  The only problem with this method is that it doesn't necessarily work well with mundane items with high equipment bonuses.  A hedgespun great axe, for example, with the same equipment bonus as a mundane great axe would still be a 4-dot token and either wouldn't have the 9-again quality of a mundane great axe, or else would be a 5-dot token if you allowed that quality to be purchased with a dot -- and yet a mundane great axe could be purchased with a mere 3 dots in Resources.

Esc1979:

Im sorry Yeti,that doesnt really help at all., there is no room for any type of bargaining here. he sticks to "this is how it is in the books,period". isnt isnt about XP cost,as Hedgespun can be crafted by the changelings.

"higher power" items have the issue of rare ingredients required as well as crafting roll difficulties...or just plainconsequences of owning something that´s a magnet for attention,the usual rule of escalation,etc.

Well, in that case you're pretty much stuck. I would suggest ditching Hedgespun altogether in favor of a Token. If you're limited entirely to canonical ones, here's the ones I recall / can find:
1) Bug Cudgel (Level 4, Corebook page 207)
2) Squall Knife (Level 5, Corebook page 208)
3) Hungry Arrow (Level 2 or 4, Rites of Spring page 148)
4) Crowsbill (Level 3, Dancers at Dusk, page 143)
5) Broken Blade (No actual level, but I'd off-record say Level 3 if you get it without joining the Entitlement, Dancers at Dusk page 155)
6) Several Legendary Tokens in Swords at Dawn, but those are probably not on the table.