How to Beat a Perfect Defense?

Nemal:

This exception seems silly to me, could someone reference where this is from please?

Oadenol's Codex, p. 135:

Worse yet, the terms of these oaths [of surrender] merely bind demons to serves Exalts and gods who are powerful enough to enforce their will.  Mortals may invite demons into Creation, but the provisions of those oaths do little to protect them and do not allow them to extract slavish servitude.

Oadenol's Codex, p. 135:

Worse yet, the terms of these oaths [of surrender] merely bind demons to serves Exalts and gods who are powerful enough to enforce their will.  Mortals may invite demons into Creation, but the provisions of those oaths do little to protect them and do not allow them to extract slavish servitude.

RoGD II, p. 24-25:

 
When one of the rare mortal initiaties of the Circle of Emerald tries to cast Demon of the First Circle, she discovers something terrible.  The spell can call the demon forth but offers no binding (as that is dependent on the pledge of servitude made to the gods and Exalts alone at the close of the Primordial War), and many demons take offense at a mortal attempting their enslavement.  Demons willing to "play nice" with a properly deferential thaumaturge aren't so willing when they're called out of Malfeas on pretense and bidden to serve one with no right to demand service.  This isn't a secret.  Mortal sorcerers who attempt to a casting of Demon of the First Circle are rare in the Age of Sorrows." 

Yeah, Quorlox has both of the relevant quotes. That's that.

Helter Skelter:

Sojko:

The point isn't to allow total combo-less perfect usage

Perfect usage is combo-less.  When you perfect, no other Charm is required because perfects are exactly that.

Yeah, go tell that to the guy who flurry Reestablish Surprise with his attack. Or the Iron Whirlwind guy.

Helter Skelter:

Sojko:

Don't do that, that way lies madness.

<rant>

Frankly I'm a little put off by the instant "rawr-hiss" reaction everyone has to Dreams.

Not a reaction to Dreams. There are usable parts. This is a reaction to your idea of a unorthodox interpretation of a failing of Dreams. The ability of always using a Perfect Defense with a combo is bad for the game. It's the power of the Deathlmord that has just been shot down by Holden. Don't bring back that problem.

Im surprised that no-one said a single word about
"
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a
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"

Anyhow... slight recap for anyone asleep at the helm?

1. (Combat) Flat out combat/trap mote attrition...
2. (Non-Combat) More interesting trap-works that don't solely rely on perfects, but ingenuity/non-combat skills...
3. (Combat) Coordinated attacks and or ALOT of flurries that have a riskingly decent chance of hitting...
4. (Both) Exploiting Flaws of Invulnerability
5. (Combat) Masses/Hordes to keep them on their toes and a few well placed attacks to throw them off guard
6. (Both) Not letting them rest via continual pursuit
7. (Non-combat) Threatening things they care about, as opposed to them directly
8. (Non-combat) Do "seemingly harmless" things (at first) to start the downhill process, like "drinking from a poisoned well"

Also, lol @ Sojko's "the Iron Whirlwind Guy"

MaboroshiRED:

Im surprised that no-one said a single word about Zeal

That's because :
A) Zeal does not exist, what are you talking about ?
B) If it did, it would have no effect on perfect defenses according to the rules. It's a broken charm that has been badly written and doesn't work.

I've seen several mentions of an introduction of a rule that allows one to pay 2 exp to merget Dipping Swallow Defense into Heaven Guardian Defense. Is this unique to those two Charms, or are there additional Charms which are going to be given this sort of treatment? Or is it a general rule that allows, with some guidelines, any Charm(s) to be merged with their prerequisites?

It appears to be a general guideline- the same rules are given for SSE/SOW, AST/ISC, the Abyssal mirrors, and Flowing Body Evasion/Whatever the Lunar DSD Is.

Sojko:

MaboroshiRED:

Im surprised that no-one said a single word about Zeal

That's because :
A) Zeal does not exist, what are you talking about ?
B) If it did, it would have no effect on perfect defenses according to the rules. It's a broken charm that has been badly written and doesn't work.

Its not to say that people should acquire zeal, my intent was that no-one even mentioned that it existed at all... It does however, make sense that because of its obviously "omni-omni" powers that it deserves to not ever be mentioned. Now im thinking of someone's quote that goes something like "Zeal sucks, as does Void Avatar Prana... ... ...something something" ... I think it used to be JimB's

I would imagine any mortal sorcerer who uses Demon of the First Circle and ISN'T also a total moron probably does a lot of research first. They probably study up on the demon they want as best they can. They probably specially prepare a summoning room with things the demon likes, hoping to placate them and make them comfortable. They probably say very pleasant and pleasing things to the demon, hoping to get on its good side, since they know they can't bind it. Really, they'll call the damned thing to them, and then just hope they can make it's stay more pleasant than its life in Malfeas was.

Hell, I wouldn't be surprised if a few demon cults here and there started by a mortal sorcerer summoning a demon, making a few deals involving steady prayers and basic-to-opulent care for the demon's needs in exchange for the use of its Charms/the ability to eat the face of one's enemies.

And I like that.

It draws a cool line of separation for me. An Exalt, any Exalt, can call up a demon and bind it to, say, wipe your ass for the rest of the year. The Exalted don't have to care because, hey, they won the war, and they're powerful enough make these commands. If a mortal once to deal with demons though, they might be powerful enough to make the call, sure, but then they're begging and wheedling to get what they want, and they give up a lot in the process. The Exalted can afford to dabble... a mortal MUST be an out-and-out demonologist if they want to truck with Hell.

MaboroshiRED:

Now I'm thinking of someone's quote that goes something like "Zeal sucks, as does Void Avatar Prana... ... ...something something" ... I think it used to be JimB's.

Is it weird that it makes me so happy someone remembered that?

It went,

"Dear everyone,

Zeal sucks.  So does Void Avatar Prana.  We all know; we all get it.  You can quit bringing it up now.

Thanks so much and lots of love,

JimB"

JimB:

MaboroshiRED:

Now I'm thinking of someone's quote that goes something like "Zeal sucks, as does Void Avatar Prana... ... ...something something" ... I think it used to be JimB's.

Is it weird that it makes me so happy someone remembered that?

It went,

"Dear everyone,

Zeal sucks.  So does Void Avatar Prana.  We all know; we all get it.  You can quit bringing it up now.

Thanks so much and lots of love,

JimB"

All in a days work, as a (Heroic?) Mortal anyway.

I'd be way more productive with a spark... And for my first task as an exalted: Actually remembering the entire quote as opposed to the 1/4th i did.

If I was Exalted, my first task would be to master those delicious Bureaucracy Charms!

Sojko:

This is a reaction to your idea of a unorthodox interpretation of a failing of Dreams.