Too many hunters!

engelhardtlm1:

There are a billion different answers to this dilemma, any of which can make a game interesting.

1.  Hunter is toolbox-y.  So, don't have every conspiracy and compact exist in your world.  Problem solved.

2.  All the conspiracies and compacts exist - however, they work at cross-purposes.  So, the Hunter-Hunter conflict prevents Hunters from being able to effectively organize.  So, even though they COULD wipe out the supernatural if they were playing on the same team, they're NOT on the same team.

4.  All the conspiracies and compacts exist, but the supernatural are really good at hiding.  So, finding them is very hard.  Plus, since one-on-one, a supe beats a Hunter, you have to find the supe, and surprise them with an attack...  otherwise, they're likely to kill you in your sleep.

5.  All the conspiracies and compacts exist, and HAVE wiped out all the supernatural.  Ends up that there's just a mass insanity that makes Hunters BELIEVE that the supernatural exist.

I'm sure there are more ways out of the problem.  But, these are a few interpretations that could prove interesting...

  Really like the 3 first options. At least, all the conspiracies exist but not all the compacts.

  And option 5 is truly WORLD OF DARKNESS. Madness... in a desperate world where your protectors are the only monsters in the world

  Thanks!

I think there are a lot of ways to run Hunter with all the various groups in play and not have a horde of hunters for every supernatural. How many members are there actively involved in the Vigil within each given group? I mean how many are desk jockeys trapped in an endless hell of paper work, Relic inventories, expense logistics, etc... How many groups are working against each other or have cells working against each other (Think about local governments who use funds on frivolous projects just to keep the from losing them from next years budget, even if the next town over could put the money to better use). How many cells are "infected" or just being manipulated to the ends of a supernatural entity (I know a few vamps who would pull their fangs for a chance to sweet talk  a cell into taking out some competition). Have you ever worked retail? Turnover is a pain you always have some new guy whose name you can't remember slowing down the whole process and the bad thing is you know he won't last any longer than the last nameless guy. I am willing to bet the life expectancy of a Hunter is not a high. Maybe its too much time spent with VtR but I see a lot of these large groups bogging down in bureaucracy and petty backbiting leaving the bulk of the work to they grunts on the street who have less experience are always in mourning, in training and out of their depth. The walking wounded fighting the walking dead. That is just my two cents.    

similar thread: http://forums.white-wolf.com/cs/forums/p/1762/45529.aspx#45529 ?

Colin1012:

I think there are a lot of ways to run Hunter with all the various groups in play and not have a horde of hunters for every supernatural. How many members are there actively involved in the Vigil within each given group? I mean how many are desk jockeys trapped in an endless hell of paper work, Relic inventories, expense logistics, etc... How many groups are working against each other or have cells working against each other (Think about local governments who use funds on frivolous projects just to keep the from losing them from next years budget, even if the next town over could put the money to better use). How many cells are "infected" or just being manipulated to the ends of a supernatural entity (I know a few vamps who would pull their fangs for a chance to sweet talk  a cell into taking out some competition). Have you ever worked retail? Turnover is a pain you always have some new guy whose name you can't remember slowing down the whole process and the bad thing is you know he won't last any longer than the last nameless guy. I am willing to bet the life expectancy of a Hunter is not a high. Maybe its too much time spent with VtR but I see a lot of these large groups bogging down in bureaucracy and petty backbiting leaving the bulk of the work to they grunts on the street who have less experience are always in mourning, in training and out of their depth. The walking wounded fighting the walking dead. That is just my two cents.    

This is good, I like your response.

Plus I imagine every size hunter group spends a loooooooooooooot of time on dead ends, there are plenty of just plain strange folk's out there with out a hint of the supernatural about them but they certianly throw off a vibe. So hunters start following them around trying to figure out what thier angle is, only after a month of stakeouts and lost time have to decide that guy is just some nut. The bigger the organization the more dead ends it has to chase down, Phil and his brother Joe are hunting one specific thing that did them wrong, TFV is trying to chase down anything wierd globally, on a budget. Plus all those dead ends also can lead to the hunters exposure, while they are focused on Larry the nut something dark might wonder about the guys in the van with parabolic mics.

engelhardtlm1:

There are a billion different answers to this dilemma, any of which can make a game interesting.

1.  Hunter is toolbox-y.  So, don't have every conspiracy and compact exist in your world.  Problem solved.

2.  All the conspiracies and compacts exist - however, they work at cross-purposes.  So, the Hunter-Hunter conflict prevents Hunters from being able to effectively organize.  So, even though they COULD wipe out the supernatural if they were playing on the same team, they're NOT on the same team.

3.  All the conspiracies and compacts exist - and some are actively creating supernatural creatures either intentionally or by accident (Cheiron, I'm lookin' at you).  So, the supernatural don't get wiped out because Hunters are creating more.

4.  All the conspiracies and compacts exist, but the supernatural are really good at hiding.  So, finding them is very hard.  Plus, since one-on-one, a supe beats a Hunter, you have to find the supe, and surprise them with an attack...  otherwise, they're likely to kill you in your sleep.

5.  All the conspiracies and compacts exist, and HAVE wiped out all the supernatural.  Ends up that there's just a mass insanity that makes Hunters BELIEVE that the supernatural exist.

I'm sure there are more ways out of the problem.  But, these are a few interpretations that could prove interesting...

Consider the Conspiracies in light of GURPS Illuminati (because GURPS did it better than White Wolf in this instance).  Consider Compacts to be scattered groups that have a unifying system and objective but methods differ between individual groups of these compacts.  Ashwood Abbey is an example of a compact that cannot possibly have maintained integrity and membership in the World of Darkness as described.  Other described Hunter groups tend to be frivolous and without good, solid thought so far.  It's like the Ordo Dracul in VtR (and we can only beg the Creator that there won't be an equivalent to Rites of the Dragon, the WoD equivalent to the most dumb-ass of Scientology texts).

septembervirgin:

Ashwood Abbey is an example of a compact that cannot possibly have maintained integrity and membership in the World of Darkness as described.  Other described Hunter groups tend to be frivolous and without good, solid thought so far. 

And which ones may I be so daring to ask are those? Since Hunter most likely is done I am curious as to how it could be explored further.
One more thing: I did not know you had to ascribe to a secret code to be a part of the elite of Wod? Lets just cut the crap.

Over to the abbey:
I think the Abbey is a very interesting group to build into a game like hunter. Not your regular hunter group, but a lot more like a hellfire-club. I tend to look at them a bit like stuck-up neer-do-wells. I would rather use them as NPCs in a hunter game or a cautionary tale for players.

Are there too many hunters? Well depends, as everyone here says. As an St I don't think you need to chuck the entire NWoD into one playable world. Use a couple of the sompacts and conspiracies together, and you could have fun for weeks, months, even years. New Compact or conspiracy means a new look on the hunt, so it gives you more options when you are making your world of darkness. If it is confusing to play with so many different hunter orgs, then cut down on some of them. Makes the whole thing easier.

septembervirgin:

It's like the Ordo Dracul in VtR (and we can only beg the Creator that there won't be an equivalent to Rites of the Dragon, the WoD equivalent to the most dumb-ass of Scientology texts).

I think we got this already. You don't like it. Move on.

septembervirgin:

Consider the Conspiracies in light of GURPS Illuminati (because GURPS did it better than White Wolf in this instance).

Vibration:

Sure they're out their slaying things, but look around, the worlds still in darkness so they must be doing it wrong.

So the point with this logic is that everything that you do in a hunter game has to be slightly wrong?
Why?
If this is your way to de-motivate your players to not play hunter, I think you just did it.
Hunters don't view their actions wrong, not at all. I guess some of them have different aspects on the whole black/white/grey area, but if they were doing it wrong they would not be alive and certainly not be playable as a part of a game. Hunters got to have belief in what they do. If someone is second-guessing them all the time I don't know if they would last long out in the feild anyways.
The hunt is more than a pointless aim in someone telling them the error of their judgement. No hunter would think so.

For the record, I handle the issue in my setting by assuming all the groups exist, but are substantively smaller than presented in the HtV core book.  VALKYRIE for example is a few hundred at most.  Malleus Maleficarum is larger, but spread very thin throughout the world.  666 is the total number of children of Lucifer (or whatever the truth is), only a fraction of that are Lucifuge, most of the rest are the Enemy.  Many Compacts are actually larger than Conspiracies - what makes them Tier 3 are their power & leadership, not their numbers (Compacts are more likely to equate more members with more manpower & potential influence, while Conspiracies often seek to maintain power through their elite & insular nature).  The vast majority of the world's hunters are Tier 1, then 2, with 3 being very rare.

engelhardtlm1:

5.  All the conspiracies and compacts exist, and HAVE wiped out all the supernatural.  Ends up that there's just a mass insanity that makes Hunters BELIEVE that the supernatural exist.

Your my hero. My PCs will never see that coming. Mawhahah.

Let's see.... I can list several examples of why Hunters haven't just 'cleaned house' without even touching on 'only use the groups you choose to.'  Presuming all of the Compacts and Conspiracy are in play, and even that they have numbers roughly equative to what's implied, and that they're heavily outnumbered by Tier 1 Hunters... all of the following still prevents them from winning the war against the monsters:

Elreve:

We already have 9 groups with the manpower to destroy all the "big guys [vampires, werewolves, mages, prometheans, changelings]" in the US...

But isn't there far more to it than just numbers? Police and federal authorities form task forces to hunt down lone serial killers, and yet they can fail. Hunter cells use Tactics because they need numbers to take on even a single supernatural being. So, an organisation has to dedicate some of its personnel to identifying and tracking supernatural beings, or its attack groups have nothing to focus on. Sure, the conspiracies and to an extent the compacts can concentrate their numbers in a city and attempt to wipe out all the identified supernatural beings. That's a pretty risky maneuver in itself, and unlikely to get even all the known monsters. Also, all the groups that contributed personnel are weakened. Their combat groups are probably out of town, and their surveillance numbers may be reduced to ineffectiveness. Most of all, any enemies they have may perceive their vulnerability, and attack. And the enemies of hunters are not limited to supernatural beings. A hunter cell could easily be identified as some kind of criminal or terrorist group, and then they have many mortal agencies hunting for them. Such a designation might not even be a mistake. The operations of the Ascending Ones often involve drug-running, the Aegis Kai Doru deal in stolen antiquities. Then we get into the element that few hunter groups are truly into eliminating everything supernatural they encounter. Cells in compacts find good reason to cooperate with mages or werewolves, conspiracy cells get ordered to attack that group of vampires but avoid this other group, that sort of thing. There are many more factors than just which group has more people.

The idea that there's 'too many hunters' seems to be a 'G.I. Joe theory'... i.e., that 'knowing is half the battle' ...but this isn't a saturday morning cartoon show or an action movie, where you proceed smoothly from 'know about the bad guys' to 'beat the bad guys senseless and get the girl' ...it's the World of Darkness, where the situation is closer to 'just knowing may actually drive you insane, and actually trying to do something about it will probably get you and everyone you know killed.'