Ancient Garamantes Ruins

I run pulpish, Indiana Jones-like game set in 1938, in which PCs are trying to hunting now relase god-mage Loki and uncovering secrets of Hyperboreans ( as understand as Lankins version ) and they Scandinavian colony-decedents, Æsirs. As my players wanted to go to African, I made today quick research with wiki and “Secret of the Ruined Temple”, and founded perfect candidate for next Hyperboreans colony – Garamantes Empire. Paradise gardens inside the heart of Sahara is very suitable and “mage-like” enough.

My research give my basic idea for ruins – the underground tomb-canal city – but in SotRT there isn't any more info. Can some one gives me more info about this “promised land” or mythology of Sahara people? Maybe some cool advices what incorporate to those fantastic ruins beneath the sands of Sahara? Any ideas?

They are indeed a very interesting civilisation. Though if I remember correctly they basically drained the local watertable, and then fell apart as a society, so a tomb city of canals would quite possibly be totally drained which could be interesting to see.

Michael:

Though if I remember correctly they basically drained the local watertable, and then fell apart as a society, so a tomb city of canals would quite possibly be totally drained which could be interesting to see.

It real good idea. ;]
 
As now, I plan to use the archaeological diggs ( or just ruins, I must check the hisotry of this local ) of city Germa as entrance to labyrinth of drayed catacombs-canals beneath them, that leads to proper Ruins. In thouse dangouns, I think I will use the Ghouls, classical zombies, or even Jinn, to add more arabic feel for the place (and rats - I love idea o rats in dry canals). The players will need to found "proper tombs", and after passing them, exit the labitynth in Desmense being oaze of ancint Garamantes, with true Hyperboreans ruins inside.

You can always at some point turn the water on. Sure the natural watertable was drained away, but I'm sure such magical ruins would have some way around that.

Idea is good, I probably use this as "destroy the site" part of exploration.

I have another problem - how make entrance to "true tomb"? Use just plain old Twilight state to come to unexplored parts of tunnels?

I'm not auite sure what you mean. However having the ruins be completely broken, only accessable as a twilight reflection of it's former self.

Okey, I try to explain - We have real life Gemerants Empire ruins, in city Germa. Players are going there, finding network of dry canals ( real one ). And then, I want them to cross in to my Mage Ruins, fantastic ones. So I need some kind of entrance, that could only be used by supernatural beings ( i.e. Mages ).

In SorRT there is old archway in one of churches in Turkey, that properly solved, opens the portal to Twilight... Or you could just use Death or Spirit 3 spells to open it. I looking for something like this - I don't want to obvious one, but enought to players could find it, and greatly I would apreciate if it was with some "arabic feel". ;]

Weren't they pre-arabic?

Well, yeah, but I thought about "decorations" of interior, and thinking about general Arabic architecture styles - else you have something more cool in it's place? My reason is that the Ancient Geremantes were the distinct from Atlantis-influenced Egyptians, and they thrive to be more uniqie - after gernations, they architecture style ( by thoae Awakened that venture they ruins ) passed to mind-set of nerby arabic people, and influnaced they style.

As to Arabic mosnter - thoses Cryptids probalby only made home long AFTER the ruins were built, they are just "rats" of this ancint "canals".

How about this: the reason why the mage-only part of the system is closed of is /because/ there is no water. Some sort of pressure valve.

So, in order to open it up they have to convince it that the section they're in is flooded. Whether that's by actually flooding it, or just creating the magical illusion that it's flooded, or just blowing up that part of the wall... is up to the players. And it's up to you whether opening that door while flooded drains it all down into a reservoir tank (with monsters!), or opening it while not flooded sends a flood of brackish ancient water (with monsters!) into the room. Or both, one then the other.

Fun times!

WyrdHamster:

Okey, I try to explain - We have real life Gemerants Empire ruins, in city Germa. Players are going there, finding network of dry canals ( real one ). And then, I want them to cross in to my Mage Ruins, fantastic ones. So I need some kind of entrance, that could only be used by supernatural beings ( i.e. Mages ).

In SorRT there is old archway in one of churches in Turkey, that properly solved, opens the portal to Twilight... Or you could just use Death or Spirit 3 spells to open it. I looking for something like this - I don't want to obvious one, but enought to players could find it, and greatly I would apreciate if it was with some "arabic feel". ;]

WyrdHamster:

Okey, I try to explain - We have real life Gemerants Empire ruins, in city Germa. Players are going there, finding network of dry canals ( real one ). And then, I want them to cross in to my Mage Ruins, fantastic ones. So I need some kind of entrance, that could only be used by supernatural beings ( i.e. Mages ).

In SorRT there is old archway in one of churches in Turkey, that properly solved, opens the portal to Twilight... Or you could just use Death or Spirit 3 spells to open it. I looking for something like this - I don't want to obvious one, but enought to players could find it, and greatly I would apreciate if it was with some "arabic feel". ;]

Arabs existed long before islam - not every muslim is arab, much like not every jew is israeli.And the berbers of Lybia are a whole different group of people - damn, Zidane is berber (though of algerian stock) if memory does not fail me.

Not that is a problem - the 1001 Nights, that one all-great source of "arabian feel" is composed in a good part of persian tales. ;-D

But back on track, on the wiki i found this:

On the matter of a secret path to the ruins, well, passages between the worlds of living and dead are usually represented by rivers (occasionally a bridge over a tenebrous river or lake of fire), passages between human and divine by climbing mountains (occasionally a stair - as the Ladder in MtAw, in fact).

What about mixing both? a man-made holy mountain - a pyramid or ziggurat - that is the source of the "river", the pyramid being some kind of dam/water reservoir that feed the channels in the long past. The pyramid must be filled with water for the river to be reborn anew and flooding the passages between mundane and supernal citadel into opening once more.

A nasty extra that crossed my mind is the danger of the PCs meeting a number of revenants - undead remnants eternally thirsty for the water they never found, ready to drink dry any interpolers into their resting place.

Baaldam:

Arabs existed long before islam

Yeah. And the concept of 'Arab' is pretty vague too. Arab Nationalists will try and lump everyone together based on 'Arab' language and culture... even though people as far apart as Morocco, Iraq, Sudan, Yemen, Egypt and Jordan share relatively little in common. Does membership in the Arab League make one Arab? Speaking Arabic? And if so WHICH dialect of Arabic?

Conversely other people will say it is based off Arab lineages which go back to one tribe or another like the Banu Kinda, Hashemites, etc. And still others would use it to describe anyone from the Arabian Peninsula.

Baaldam:

not every muslim is arab, much like not every jew is israeli

Nor is every Arab a Muslim. There are sizable 'Arab' Christian communities like the Maronites in Lebanon, Assyrians in Iraq, Orthodox Christians in Palestine and Copts in Egypt. There are (or were) plenty of Arab Jews in places like Morocco and Yemen until quite recently. Most are now in Israel, and in fact pop singer Ofra Haza was of Yemeni descent. And the Druze are arguably 'Arab' though they don't call themselves such.

Conversely, the bulk of the Muslim world is definitely non-Arab. Turks, Persians, Kurds, Berbers, Somalis, Hausas, Fulanis, Chechens, Azeris, Albanians, Panjabis, Sindhis, Kashmiris, Afghanis, Malays, Uighurs, Tatars, Mande... all are NON-ARAB! The bulk of the world's Muslim population is in fact in ASIA - countries like Pakistan, India, Indonesia, Afghanistan, Bangladesh... of the 10 largest Muslim countries, only Egypt is in the Arab world!

Baaldam:

And the berbers of Lybia are a whole different group of people 

Yes and no.

Berbers are distinct from Arab people, in terms of language and culture, but the term 'Berber' is more of a catch all for several tribal/ethnic groups native to North Africa. Until very recently there was no unified 'Berber' culture... people were Kabyle, Chaoui, Zenati, or whatever. And several of THOSE groups are split into even smaller tribal groups.

The big problem is that Berber identity is bigger in the West than in Libya. ALOT of people have Berber blood, definitely, but almost nobody speaks the language or has any real connection to our culture. Being 'Berber' in Libya is almost like being 1/12 Cherokee in the US. We're just so much a part of the Arab world. Berber consciousness is much bigger in Morocco and Algeria (ESP. with the Kabyles) and in the diaspora in France.

So while most of the population of Libya probably does have Berber blood, it sadly doesn't mean any mythical connections to the Berber past. Being Muslim has historically been far more important than whether someone is Arab or Berber or mixed or even black African for that matter. And Libya is pretty much 99% Muslim (Sunni with some strong Sanussi Sufi influences) so its pretty homogenous.

Also most of the Muslim conquest of North Africa, and several dynasties like the Almohads and Almoravids, were done by Berber tribal soldiers and often under Berber leaders (like Tariq ibn Ziyad). One of my personal heroes (ibn Battuta) was Berber.

Baaldam:

damn, Zidane is berber (though of algerian stock) if memory does not fail me

Yes he is. Of Kabyle descent, which means northern Algeria. There's a VERY large Kabyle Berber population in France, maybe a couple million due to the violent civil war in Algeria.

Baaldam:

the 1001 Nights, that one all-great source of "arabian feel" is composed in a good part of persian tales

Alf Layla wa Layla IS origianlly Persian, yes, along with some Greek, Egyptian, Chinese, Indian and even more far-flung influences. But yeah, it filtered down into the Middle East until it was popular in the cafes of Cairo, Damascus and Baghdad. But then those cities were long under Turkish control and the Turks were very big fans of Persian literature.

I would suggest Kalila wa Dimna, but that also borrows pretty heavily from Greek and Indian stories too. And the stories of Djoha are also shared with Persian and Italian folklore. But at least the Banu Hilal epic and story of 'Antara are both PURE Arab legends!

Also, just worth noting here, the Holy Qur'an IS in Arabic, and all the early Islamic material is in Arabic. Especially for Shi'as (the Nahj al-Balagha). But then theres not alot of legendry there, beyond maybe some mention of the peoples of 'Ad and Thamud and such.

Baaldam:

On the matter of a secret path to the ruins, well, passages between the worlds of living and dead are usually represented by rivers (occasionally a bridge over a tenebrous river or lake of fire), passages between human and divine by climbing mountains (occasionally a stair - as the Ladder in MtAw, in fact).

What about mixing both? a man-made holy mountain - a pyramid or ziggurat - that is the source of the "river", the pyramid being some kind of dam/water reservoir that feed the channels in the long past. The pyramid must be filled with water for the river to be reborn anew and flooding the passages between mundane and supernal citadel into opening once more.

I used this. :) I made players to "create water" in now dry canals, any magic possible. In the ned the Guardian of cabal make a water phantasm, that then amplified and remake the ruins in to "magical place", renewing everything with flood of Mana-based water.

Baaldam:

A nasty extra that crossed my mind is the danger of the PCs meeting a number of revenants - undead remnants eternally thirsty for the water they never found, ready to drink dry any interpolers into their resting place.

Also used that and make the not revenants, but rather the "better zombies". On last session players killed the "Gamarantin King" in Fountaain chamber, were they needed to make the water thing.

Any other ideas? Now I have remaked doungones in game.

I just want to say in response to Zakariya Bey's post:

I love discussions on human culture and ethnicity. : )

WyrdHamster:

Players are going there, finding network of dry canals ( real one ). And then, I want them to cross in to my Mage Ruins, fantastic ones. So I need some kind of entrance, that could only be used by supernatural beings ( i.e. Mages ).

The water in the canal has passed away, long gone to the dust and the sand. But the ghost of that river still lingers on in twilight, the spectral waters lapping silently at the dry columns.

To gain entrance to the Inner Earth temple one needs to sail. Simply entering into twilight is not sufficient, for the gate-magics which open to the inner realms will only allow those arriving by canal-boat to pass onwards to the secret palaces of the Garamanteans.

The problem is that the gate itself is not in twilight, nor does it have the power to affect twilight beings. It wasn't designed for that, after all. It was designed to transport those with mana in their patterns who arrived by boat. The fact that the canal ran dry was never dreamed of by the original designers.

So anyone wishing to enter would have to enchant a vessel so that it could interact with twilight, and then float on down the ghost of a canal long dead to enter the holy places of a dead water-worshipping kingdom.

Which is why this site has remained relatively undiscovered until now.