....it just bugs me...

So, I'm pretty new to Scion, but I fell in love with it right away. I'm switching over from all other systems and sticking with this one because it's so much more fun. The world is pretty fun to play in. I could go on for a really long time on the virtues, but everyone here probably knows that already (why else would I post).

There is, however, one thing that really bugs me. OK, it's two things, the combination of which bother me. I wonder if I'm the only person to notice this/find it strange. I have a feeling I'm the eight millionth person to bring this up.

In the Scion Companion, they present the Order of Divine Glory. For those of us who haven't read it, here's the rundown:
All Christians, Jews, and Muslims are worshippers of the Titan Aten who have the nefarious scheme of tricking the whole world into thinking that all gods are Aten. They are all either overtly evil or stupid. They bomb abortion clinics, brainwash followers, and summon fanatical bigots to shoot up villages.

Fine. We can establish that Christianity doesn't fit with Scion (unless you count Voodoo). I'll even give you that Christianity is openly opposed to the concepts that Scion requires to run. Scion operates under the pagan idea for world creation which states that the gods are the victors in a cosmic battle, the world is made up of the carcasses of the vanquished, and humans were created for the sole purpose of being the slaves of the ancient kings, to be slaughtered wholesale at their whims because, after all, they're just inferior humans. The book of Genesis states the exact opposite, the world was made in peace, the world is good, humans were made to be free. Christianity's spread through medieval Europe can be attributed to the fact that the people were so sick of having to accept whatever divine mandates the 'children of gods' handed down (especially when they were things like 'you must pay me tribute for I have raped your daughter and made her my slave'). Nobody is saying that Christianity is a perfect religion (the fact is, you have a lot of people who don't agree with each other following the same God).

As for the nefarious plan.... uh... welcome to the history of religion. Even in the core rulebooks, there are a lot of 'gods from older pantheons that got mixed in'. It was intended to allow people to continue practicing their religion and follow the new state religion.

OK, that's part one. It's a complete argument in and of itself, but by itself it's just a minor 'You, sir or madam who has written this passage might do well to apply your opinion to your rectum!'

Part one and two make me scratch my head.

So, the Aesir, the pantheon from which the hero of the story in Scion: Hero hails, the clearest 'Good Guy' pantheon is the reason for Hitler. I know it's for a theatrical war game, and the realities behind enemy lines aren't the point... but honestly. How can Christianity be 'evil' because it has a few whackos but the Aesir can be 'good' when it is the direct cause for the death of 17,000,000 innocents?

Granted, 6,000,000 of them were Jews, and most of the other 11 Million were members of an Abrahamic faith and all of it was engineered by Heinrich Himmler, a very devout pagan.

Maybe I'm doing an act of Very Bad Luck by lighting the fuse on a stick of dynamite on my first thread. Perhaps I shall awaken to a plague of angry bees in my colon. Perhaps, as a show of spite, the game (and my dice) shall visit upon me the rare and much feared isocahedral botch, but I can't be the only person in the world who has thought this...

Right?

walrusgumbo:

In the Scion Companion, they present the Order of Divine Glory. For those of us who haven't read it, here's the rundown:
All Christians, Jews, and Muslims are worshippers of the Titan Aten who have the nefarious scheme of tricking the whole world into thinking that all gods are Aten. They are all either overtly evil or stupid. They bomb abortion clinics, brainwash followers, and summon fanatical bigots to shoot up villages.

First of all, welcome! I'm fairly new myself, but I've been playing Scion for a while, long enough to develop opinions on most things, anyway.

Regarding the Order: I find it offensive. It doesn't exist in my game. From what I understand, most people don't use it, or change it so that it's not so blatantly inflamatory. I largely ignore Christianity in my game. If I have to reference it directly, I say that Christian worship is closer to our modern idea of religion than the religion of the ancients as portrayed in Scion. As in, they are not worshipping a literal god, per se, but the ability in every human heart to do good and to be moral. I know that that's just as offensive in some ways, but even more problems are created by personifying Yaweh, a traditionally non-personified god. I've also toyed with the idea of having Christians worship Fate, but I'm still on the fence about that one.

Unfortunately, I can't comment on the Hitler thing, because I don't own the last part of the Companion. As I understand it, the Aesir were brainwashed or enslaved or something. Hopefully someone with fuller knowledge could enlighten me.

Halloweenman33:

walrusgumbo:

In the Scion Companion, they present the Order of Divine Glory. For those of us who haven't read it, here's the rundown:
All Christians, Jews, and Muslims are worshippers of the Titan Aten who have the nefarious scheme of tricking the whole world into thinking that all gods are Aten. They are all either overtly evil or stupid. They bomb abortion clinics, brainwash followers, and summon fanatical bigots to shoot up villages.

That's not completely true.  The book (as well as confirmation by several of the developers) pretty much states that the Order of Divine Glory is a radical minority.  They are a small group of extremists and do not represent all of the monotheistic religions. 

The point here isn't how many people are following it. It's that God is Aten. That much seemed pretty blunt, not just in this book, but in the other ones as well. He's portrayed, not as an Egyptian looking guy (as you might expect given where he's supposed to be from), but as God as pictured in the Sistine Chapel. The first passage on the History states with no possible other interpretation that the One God is Aten. Again, he's an evil being.

The Aesir are directly responsible for the Holocaust, but they're still the 'good guys'. You can kill everyone (well, 17,000,000 people) who disagrees with you, but don't you dare try to spread your weapon using the most hideous and evil of all weapons 'peace'.

Yeah, they don't have any mention of the Holocaust, and they all agree on it (I think to get out of Ragnarok). Zeus was replaced by Caligula, and the Japanese... I haven't really looked at them.

I loved the American Pantheon, and the French Pantheon, and the Allied Pantheon and all that, even if I have no idea how they got enough source material for some of them (e.g. Rosie the Riveter), but it's mostly quite good. THOU SHOULDST GET IT!

Many many more people have died "in the name" of Christianity then in the holocaust.  Gotta get over it friend.  You didnt make your points quite clear, but as far as I can surmise ...

1)You dont like that they made Christianity out to be the bad guy. 

2) You are confused that the Aesir were behind the axis powers.


Well Christianity was the downfall of polytheism.  So in a game whose entire concept is based around polytheism, monotheism is the bad guy.  Theres no getting past that.  What they did in the book was perfect for it.

The aesir are heroic, but they are not good guys.  Vikings raped and pillaged, they murdered tons of people in the Aesir's name.  Good does not equal heroic.  Most of the lines between good and evil are blurred by godhood.

Scion, wether core or the various expansions is toolbox in form. Take what you want and leave the rest. With that in mind, very very few of the core pantheons have any good guys when you look at mythology any bit. With that in mind, you should not look a the core pantheon as "good guys" so much as protagonists. That is they are the central characters of the story, independantly of the morality of such characters. A good example is the Atlantzi who are vile, blood thirsty gods. But they are the protagonists  of Aztec mythology all the same...

The same goes with any other pantheon in Scion. remember just because the player's parents are dicks, doesn't mean the players have to be. One of the themes of Scion is the contrast of ancient mythology with modern sensibilities. There's nothing to stop the players from giving the finger to their parent gods and trying to bring justice for all the abuses these gods committed...

Use or ditch the order to your desires...

Lambach:

Many many more people have died "in the name" of Christianity then in the holocaust.  Gotta get over it friend.  You didnt make your points quite clear, but as far as I can surmise ...

1)You dont like that they made Christianity out to be the bad guy. 

2) You are confused that the Aesir were behind the axis powers.


Well Christianity was the downfall of polytheism.  So in a game whose entire concept is based around polytheism, monotheism is the bad guy.  Theres no getting past that.  What they did in the book was perfect for it.

The aesir are heroic, but they are not good guys.  Vikings raped and pillaged, they murdered tons of people in the Aesir's name.  Good does not equal heroic.  Most of the lines between good and evil are blurred by godhood.

Well, yes, when you count in all of the martyrs in Rome, Japan, Britannia, things like the Armenian Genocide, and the evangelists killed by the aforementioned children of gods, or maybe even the mass slaughter of Christians in the Soviet Union (20 million because they didn't follow state-sponsored atheism)...

That's not really the point here. I (like, I bet, virtually every other person who plays) don't use them, I play with a diverse group of people, including Christians, Jews, Atheists, agnostics, and everyone else.

If, for example, the Titans were the bad guys in WWII and Christianity is completely ignored (or it's Voodoo, if you follow the Loa and aren't Catholic, you're practicing something else entirely), no problem.

None of that made any coherent sense.

walrusgumbo:

Fine. We can establish that Christianity doesn't fit with Scion (unless you count Voodoo).

On the other hand, the early roots of Christianity (Canaanite religion and pre-Hellenic Judaism) fits just fine. El/Yahweh smites people, is persuaded to change his mind by mere mortals, and is married to a goddess who bears him seventy sons.

walrusgumbo:

The book of Genesis states the exact opposite, the world was made in peace, the world is good, humans were made to be free.

I'm not sure that's an accurate restatement of the lessons of Genesis. And in any case, given that Scion mangles every other myth cycle for its own purposes, there's no reason to hold Genesis to a higher standard. The separation of the firmaments? That's Yahweh ripping a Titan in half to create sea and sky. Why not?

It seems you and me are in exactly the same ball park on the abrahamic issue Eric Minton...

Oh boy, another argument/discussion about the Order of Divine Glory!

I don't know for sure whether I'll actually use Abrahamic material in my upcoming game, but I'd like to have the option available.

My viewpoint derives, at least in part, from my upbringing. My parents weren't active participants in any creed or congregation, and our house library included both books on mythology and illustrated Old Testament stories. So on an emotional level I don't feel any fundamental difference between, say, Hercules and Samson, or Hermes and Gabriel, or Tiresias and Elijah. Obviously monotheistic theology is vastly different from polytheism, but I'm not concerned with theology here! I'm just interested in the stories.

Eric Minton:

So on an emotional level I don't feel any fundamental difference between, say, Hercules and Samson, or Hermes and Gabriel, or Tiresias and Elijah. Obviously monotheistic theology is vastly different from polytheism, but I'm not concerned with theology here! I'm just interested in the stories.

That's how I mostly feel about the issue too, actually...

Rainfall:

Now, if you're freaking out about Aten being placed in the position of 'The One God,' stop. Think about it. If The One True God is existant in the Scionverse, he's just as unknowable and untouchable as he is in the real world. People pretend to be the Messiah all the time these days, Aten is just another pretender to the Throne of Heaven. Just because a group of absolutely crazy people want him to become the ultimate ruler of the universe doesn't mean that he's God. God is already the Ultimate Ruler.

Yep. Whether or not there is a transcendent Judeo-Christian-Islamic God in any particular Storyteller's game, Aten isn't it. He's clearly finite.