Vigor, make it a true supernatural force/Resilience, make it more valuable

Don't you think the power Vigor is not profitable? I mean, it's exactly the same to improve the strength attribute; no, it's cheaper 'cause it doesn't cost one point of vitae to activate. So I was wondering if it wouldn't be better to change Vigor in order to make it really supernatural, and distinguish it from the force of  werewolves in the same time (make it more costly but more supernatural). What do you think of the following:

One point of vitae is used to give a number of automatic successes equal to the number of dots in Vigor, for one turn. Of course, the score in Vigor is not added to the dice pool.

It can sound powerful at high level knowing that elders can gather more vitae in their system and thus make use of this power more often and... yes it is. But at more medium levels, it's not much a difference giving the cost per turn. And like I said, it distinguishes the supernatural strength of vampires from that of werewolves, making it more immediate but more direct.

Now let's tackle Resilience. I think it's not a really efficient power since aggravated damage are not that frequent. So why not extend the power of this discipline to all kind of damage, giving priority to the highest type of damage of course? Thus, with 3 dots in resilience, Kraven the Ventrue would take 3 bashing damage and 1 lethal damage if stroke by an attack which would normally inflinct him 4 lethal damage.

What do you think of all this?

I think Vigor is fine as it is. Yes, you can buy more Strength, but the cost goes up the more dots you buy and it only goes up to 5.

Resilience I think could get a little boost however, but not something too big. Maybe make it so that you always convert your dots in resilience from agg to lethal without the scene limit.

You mean that the power would be permanently activated?

But still, I'm not sure it was too big for resilience; with the original rule, a vampire with resilience 5 stroke by a baseball bat and taking 5 bashing damage would get as hurt as a vampire without resilience.

Another way if we keep the power limited to agg damage would be to convert a number of damage equal to the number of dots in resilience per attack rather than per scene (but maybe this is what you meant...).

Kinda to expand on what Tonllus was saying, basically vigor gives you a seperate track to buy additional strength on at a reduced xp cost. while it's true that you have to spend an instant action and a vitae to activate that strength, I've yet to see that as an issue in actual gameplay.
People can generally tell when combat's coming and they tend to activate vigor far in advance of any combat which may require it. Since it's active for an entire scene, it's basically extra dice there as soon as combat starts.

As for the automatic success deal, without getting into alot of talk about statistics and stuff, I think it's sufficient for me to simply say there's better ways of going about house ruling Vigor imo. Instant success actions, even combat ones, don't lead to interesting stories, and that's about as nice as i  think i can put that.

Finally, Vigor does a little more then boosting strength, though that is it's main function in combat. Vigor also uncaps the jumping distance for athletics pools. it's possible for a vampire with lots of dots in strength, vigor, athletics, and some dots in Parkour to effectively fly.

As for resilience, I've seen some different house rules on that which are interesting; I largely agree that resilience needs adjustment. There's really no comparison between resilience and celerity, at least by the canon rules. It's definitely intentional, given that defense is usually not on par with offensive measures, but the difference is too great. Unless you're a vitae starved neonate, you're better off with dots in celerity then dots in resilience i think.

Concerning Vigor, I have to admit my house rule is not that good (I've not tried it in game). I've just made a simulation with it and... that rocks too much.

But for Resilience, I maintain. I proposed different things to adjust a power that is too weak compared to celerity as you said it, maybe you could propose some ideas too?

Well your forgetting the vampires healing abilities in addition to the extra health boxes and like vigor it lasts a scene while celerity goes turn by turn, however celerity can be taken reflexively so it doesn't have to be kept on until say an attack that it will come in handy on. So if you wanna burn blood by all means celerity, but Resilience offers plenty of options if applied properly, just don't recommend being too hurt when it wears off.

Lestat:

Another way if we keep the power limited to agg damage would be to convert a number of damage equal to the number of dots in resilience per attack rather than per scene (but maybe this is what you meant...).

Yeah, this was my idea, doesn't look to powerful to me. Resilience could use a little tweaking, but it's better than it seems. My players thought it was pretty underwhelming, but they started buying when they realized that for just 1 Vitae a scene they can take more punishment before suffering penalties and they can take that extra hit before dying. And not having to spend outrageous amounts of Vitae to heal aggravated is nice too.

The worst thing about Resilience is probably that when you lose its effects you still have the damage you took. It's very easy for someone to die or go torpid the moment the power ends, especially if they took aggravated damage that can't be easily healed. I would make it so that you can go into torpor but you can't die like this.

Ok, ok... Taking all this into account, I'd propose this:

Resilience is effective against all kind of damage (sorry but this exclusive focus on agg damage still troubles me) and is fully applicable to every attack of the scene. Moreover, when the power lasts, each extra health box which has not been filled represents the downgrading of damage in one single health box, sarting from the right. Hence, a vampire whose only one extra health box is filled when the power lasts will have damage downgraded in his last health box and the one before. The damage from the  filled extra box, however, will still be transfered to the first health box, increasing the severity of the damage by one.
If all the extra boxes are filled, of course the guy is in serious trouble, that doesn't change.

What do you think? I hope I've been clear enough. Sorry if not, but English is not my first language.

Vigor and Resilience are just fine the way they are. Vigor is temporary Strength, and Resilience is temporary Stamina, so you need to balance them against Strength and Stamina. Vigor and Resilience cost 1 Vitae and last for a scene, which by itself makes them not quite as good as just raising the Attributes. But wait, Vigor also gives a bonus to how far you can jump that can frankly get insane, and Resilience allows you to downgrade aggravated damage, which is a bitch to heal. I think that's balanced, personally.

One of these days, I'm seriously going to make an Ordo Dracul Gangrel who walks through fire. Maybe go Shepherd and twink Circle the Wagons.

Also if you ever feel that vigor and resilience are to weak I would suggest looking into devotions that need them, devotions are usually a very good way to beef a power up.

Firstly, nearly every character I've made to play for my personal enjoyment has had resilience. I stand by my original post though. Resilience needs slight modification. The power, as written, does not need to be thrown out completely, but it's the least useful power of any of the physical discplines, and there's times when it's painfully clear.

The focus on aggravated damage prevents Resilience from becoming instant win in combat. 

If you can downgrade any type of damage,why spend vitae to heal? If i can downgrade a number of lethal wounds equal to my resilience rating a round, I'm doing better then most elders. It takes a little bit to get a character that can heal 3 lethal a round, but by this house rule, a neonate with all his free dots in resilience is going to outshine an elder, at least in terms of taking a beating.

Resilience is a tough one to tweak because it doesn't take alot to break it. Small adjustments are best if you're looking to house rule this one.

Qcks:

The focus on aggravated damage prevents Resilience from becoming instant win in combat. 

I approve.

I think the general ideas of 'Resilience downgrades per attack' or my favorite 'Resilience downgrade can be refreshed for 1 vitae reflexively' give it plenty to edge it up to where it should be.

Here are my houserules:

Celerity:
A character’s dots in Celerity are added to her Speed as long as the Discipline is not activated. When activated, the unmodified Speed rating gets multiplied as usual, along with the other benefits of Celerity.

Resilience:
Resilience permanently adds its dots to a character’s Health. It still requires an instant action, costing one Vitae, to activate the other benefits of the Discipline. When adding Resilience to a character’s Stamina this way, the character’s Health does not increase further.

Vigor:
When Vigor is activated, it adds both to the Strength (+ Athletics) + equipment roll and the number of feet leapt by success when jumping. It is added double to the number of feet for running jumps.

Resilience needed an upgrading, I think.
Vigor has a benefit beyond + Strength that makes it worth the activation cost.
Celerity got a small change so it's not the only one without an upgrade.

I use Stre + Dext + Athl = Speed, btw.

Zeev:

I think the general ideas of 'Resilience downgrades per attack' or my favorite 'Resilience downgrade can be refreshed for 1 vitae reflexively' give it plenty to edge it up to where it should be.

With the 'Resilience downgrades per attack' idea, what happens when hit with Bashing damage?

Nothing. Resilience would downgrade aggravated to lethal like normal.