Should the Incarna have Exalted Charms?

Another thing me and a friend got into an argument about. He feels that the Unconquered Sun, as The Solar, should have all Solar charms. I am of the opinion that not only is the Unconquered Sun not The Solar, he is not even A Solar, and as such his arsenal should be (high-Essence and very powerful) spirit charms. Discuss.

Side note: Is Incarna or Incarnae the plural?

Side note the second: Why do people refer to the Unconquered Sun as Sol Invictus? There is no Latin in Exalted.

I don't think so really.
Obviously, the Green Sun Princes use Yozi charms. So I could see a situation where Solars used the Unconquered Sun's charms. But that's explicitly just not how it works.
It's part of their point, that the Solars are not just mini-UCSs, they are so much more.
I personally feel that Solars should have the potential to be more powerful than the Unconquered Sun, Lunars should have the potential to be more powerful than Luna, and Sidereals should have the potential to be more powerful than the Maidens.
These are the out-of-control super-weapons they created, who could turn on their creators and destroy them.

I would, however, imagine that the Unconquered Sun has mastered, among other styles, Solar Hero style. I could even see him as creating it.

Side note the second: Why do people refer to the Unconquered Sun as Sol Invictus? There is no Latin in Exalted.

I assume it's a reference to the Roman God Sol Invictus, meaning the Unconquered Sun, who presumably was part of the inspiration for the original writers, in the same way that the Maidens are based somewhat on the Roman Gods who share their names.

The Wizard of Oz:

I assume it's a reference to the Roman God Sol Invictus, meaning the Unconquered Sun, who presumably was part of the inspiration for the original writers, in the same way that the Maidens are based somewhat on the Roman Gods who share their names.

The Maidens are, in larger part, based off of gods from the series Pegana.  Otherwise, Saturn would be the Maiden of Time and Jupiter would be the Maiden of Ruling Over You.  The Unconquered Sun was also described by earlier Exalted fandom as being more like Mithras, who also held the "Unconquered" title.  In any case, there is still no Latin in Creation.

The Incarnae are immensly powerful. If they don't have all the charms of their exalts its because they don't feel the need to have them. But could if they wanted to, the same way that Yozis and deathlords can learn charms created by their chosen.

I would argue that the Maidens have more charms then their chosen as the sidereals only have what charms the maidens decide to give them.

remember that all incarnae have access to SMA and adamant circle sorcery as well as control over the sky and (in the case of UCS and Saturn) the power to summon and bind the yozis.

If they don't have all the charms of their exalts its because they don't feel the need to have them.

Or because they're just Gods, not Exalts, and can't. Very powerful Essence 10 Gods, with unique spirit charms more powerful than many Exalts know, but still Gods, not Exalts.
Yozis can learn charms developed by Green Sun Princes because those are Yozi charms, not Exalt charms.
Solars learn Solar charms, not the spirit charms known by the Unconquered Sun. Otherwise they'd be able to learn spirit charms.
As to Deathlords, they learn death-aspected versions of their old charms (ie Abyssal charms), because they used to know Solar charms. Abyssals do not learn Deathlord charms, in fact they have nothing to do with Deathlords, they just both can learn Abyssal charms. And these have nothing whatsoever to do with the Neverborn.
This was explicitly said by some of the writers of Infernals.
Anyway, this will all be covered in Glories of the Most High I'm sure. Although that won't be out until Autumn.

lumber_of_the_beast:

Another thing me and a friend got into an argument about. He feels that the Unconquered Sun, as The Solar, should have all Solar charms. I am of the opinion that not only is the Unconquered Sun not The Solar, he is not even A Solar, and as such his arsenal should be (high-Essence and very powerful) spirit charms. Discuss.

Definitely not a Solar, and definitely should not have Solar Exalted Charms. However, it's not unreasonable to say that since Solars are the Solar Schtick is "Extraordinary Brilliance" and Sol is the personification of Brilliance, Sol's custom spirit Charms might look very similar to Solar Charms, even to the point of being equivalent.

lumber_of_the_beast:

Side note: Is Incarna or Incarnae the plural?

First declension latin noun. Incarna (singular), Incarnae (plural).

lumber_of_the_beast:

Side note the second: Why do people refer to the Unconquered Sun as Sol Invictus? There is no Latin in Exalted.

It's a title. He has many. Also, see side note the first.

Getting SMA never made sense to me. Now that the Yozi can't get them why would the incarnae be any different?

lantash1482:

The Incarnae are immensly powerful. If they don't have all the charms of their exalts its because they don't feel the need to have them. But could if they wanted to, the same way that Yozis and deathlords can learn charms created by their chosen.

I would argue that the Maidens have more charms then their chosen as the sidereals only have what charms the maidens decide to give them.

remember that all incarnae have access to SMA and adamant circle sorcery as well as control over the sky and (in the case of UCS and Saturn) the power to summon and bind the yozis.

Wat?

lumber_of_the_beast:

Another thing me and a friend got into an argument about. He feels that the Unconquered Sun, as The Solar, should have all Solar charms. I am of the opinion that not only is the Unconquered Sun not The Solar, he is not even A Solar, and as such his arsenal should be (high-Essence and very powerful) spirit charms. Discuss.

I agree with this assessment, The Exalted are suppose to have the potential to surpass their patrons and if so desired, kick them out of power. It's seems more interesting that The Unconquered Sun would have a similar but not identical set of Charms, and the Solar prowess is a combination of Sol Invictus' brilliance, Autochthon's quality craftsmanship, and Humanities plucky never-say-die attitude.

On the practical level though, there are certain effects that The Unconquered Sun should have, like cheap perfect defenses and immunity to Shaping effects where a Storyteller could devise a completely different scheme to simulate this, but will probabily be almost identical to Solar Charms with slight cost differences. Some poeple may have time for this but I sure as hell do not, and would just use the Solar set and call it a day.

lumber_of_the_beast:

Side note: Is Incarna or Incarnae the plural?

Incarna I think, but I'm not sure. So long as your not using Incarnate I think your golden.

lumber_of_the_beast:

Side note the second: Why do people refer to the Unconquered Sun as Sol Invictus? There is no Latin in Exalted.

All Exalted books have been enhanced with an effect called "World Trancending Translation Prana"(For no extra cost!) since the concepts therein would make little sense to readers in our world. This same magic is applied to period piece moves and far reaching science fiction where dispite not taking place an English speaking country or taking into account linguistic drift, everybody speaks perfect modern English. Also after writing Unconquerd Sun more than twice in a single paragraph it becomes repetitive and it's nice to jazz things up with smarty-thinky phrases like Sol Invictus.

Definitely not a Solar, and definitely should not have Solar Exalted Charms. However, it's not unreasonable to say that since Solars are the Solar Schtick is "Extraordinary Brilliance" and Sol is the personification of Brilliance, Sol's custom spirit Charms might look very similar to Solar Charms, even to the point of being equivalent.

This seems likely. Not exactly the same (using essence as charm dice-caps rather than attribute+ability, having charms based on his virtues not his abilties, being able to combo any of his charms at all, and so on) because he's a spirit and uses spirit rules, but they probably would look similar and have similar effects.
Although he has a lot of high essence charms, and they tend to be custom jobs, so it's difficult to say if they are similar to a Solars or not.

MercyBlowz:

lantash1482:

The Incarnae are immensly powerful. If they don't have all the charms of their exalts its because they don't feel the need to have them. But could if they wanted to, the same way that Yozis and deathlords can learn charms created by their chosen.

I would argue that the Maidens have more charms then their chosen as the sidereals only have what charms the maidens decide to give them.

remember that all incarnae have access to SMA and adamant circle sorcery as well as control over the sky and (in the case of UCS and Saturn) the power to summon and bind the yozis.

Wat?

The UCS and Saturn have the power to summon the Yozis to their presence if they wanted to. (not THE yozi, but possibly ontly the jouten..in the same way that you summon ligier without banishing the green sun)

The Incarna COULD learn SMA, but scroll of the monk also say that they are the less likely to learn them...Why would and All-Mighty God ask an exalt to by his/her sifu?...Also, they spend all of his time in the Games....so, even when then can learn them, i seriously doubt they have spend enough time to even learn one charm. So, for me, they dont have SMA.

Where say the Incarnae has Adamant Circle Sorcery?

The Wizard of Oz:

because he's a spirit and uses spirit rules, but they probably would look similar and have similar effects.

I thought the deal with the Incarnae was that they were spirits but had ascended to a higher state, sort of like the Elemental Dragons becoming Celestial Level. I would imagine may push their abilities to outside even an Essence 10 god.

Except that the Incarnae are not just gods. They are the Incarnae, They have access to powers that no other god has (as stated in my previous post).

Look at it this way. A gods charms are based on their nature. It is in the nature of the unconquered sun to be unbeatable. If someone can do something, he can do it better. Luna is the embodiment of change, it can become whatever it wants. And the Maidens run the loom of fate. If they want to make a drastic alteration to it they can.

That is in a nutshell what solars, lunars, and sidereals charm cascades are based around. If you want to say for thematic purposes that they have one or two charms that can do all the things that their chosen do then thats fine but the Unconquered Sun is unconquerable. If that fact changes will probably implode when its sun goes dark or implodes.

lantash1482:

The Incarnae are immensly powerful. If they don't have all the charms of their exalts its because they don't feel the need to have them. But could if they wanted to, the same way that Yozis and deathlords can learn charms created by their chosen.

I would argue that the Maidens have more charms then their chosen as the sidereals only have what charms the maidens decide to give them.

remember that all incarnae have access to SMA and adamant circle sorcery as well as control over the sky and (in the case of UCS and Saturn) the power to summon and bind the yozis.

I disagree.  The Exalted are, I think, supposed to have the potential to exceed their patrons in the long term, which is not possible if you do things like that.

Summoning and binding the Yozis is not so simple.  Infernals implies that it's purely theoretical for now, in fact -- the Ebon Dragon's argument to the others about why the GSPs needed free will said that he had carefully read the surrender oaths, and thought that with just the right wording on the part of the Incarnae, it might be a possibility that they could be ordered to destroy their own Chosen.  But it's not as simple as even, say, summoning a Third Circle Demon and ordering it to do stuff.