What are the gods?

It seems that the Greek and Germanic gods were related to and desended from giants. That could suggest one of 2 things:
1) Giants are gods, or vice versa.
2) What Darwin said apply (to a degree) to the divine.

SunlessNick:

In my "book", being worshiped as a god, makes you a god.  -  Evo_Shandor

"What is a god but one who is worshipped by those beneath?"  (From Stargate, though I doubt it's original to that).

Good arguments, but I have to dissagree in a certain way. I think that a god is someone/something that listens and responds to  worship, prayer, basicly spiritual/religious belief (please note that it dosen't nessesaraly have to be human). 

 

NOWOD:

It seems that the Greek and Germanic gods were related to and desended from giants. That could suggest one of 2 things:
1) Giants are gods, or vice versa.
2) What Darwin said apply (to a degree) to the divine.

SunlessNick:

In my "book", being worshiped as a god, makes you a god.  -  Evo_Shandor

"What is a god but one who is worshipped by those beneath?"  (From Stargate, though I doubt it's original to that).

Good arguments, but I have to dissagree in a certain way. I think that a god is someone/something that listens and responds to  worship, prayer, basicly spiritual/religious belief (please note that it dosen't nessesaraly have to be human). 

 

How would one know if he does or doesnt... Somone once told me a girl named Karma is a bitch

After reading Inferno and the side-box therein about angels, my conclusion is somewhat like so:

Heaven and Hell are only two examples of religious-related realms. Certainly, many dead do end up in either of these places, based on individual faith, but these two realms are not the only ones. Just as one ends in Heaven or Hell because he believes he will go to either places after death, there are some who ends up elsewhere.

The other religions, the Gods and their Realms, were created in much the same way as Heaven and Hell, but nobody knows really how that is. Asgard and Hel, Olympus and Hades, and all the rest, all exist in pretty much the same way as Heaven and Hell do; as pocket realms within the Universe (or the Twilight or whatever). In much the same way as angels and demons can, the agents of these realms can possess a mortal host, some even choose to manifest.

Bottom line, the Gods of different pantheons work in a similar way as the demons in Inferno; as slightly modified spirits. I'm brainstorming a bit on Valhallians (those from Asgard) with a focus on Valkiries and maybe Vanir. I might post it someday if I continue with it, but my current time is pretty limited.

Anyways, hope this made sense since I often babble when tired.

I agree with those who say that a "god" is anything that people choose to worship, and that a variety of beings have been worshiped as gods throughout history.  Some chthonic deities may have been Deathlords, powerful ghosts (which Deathlords may be), ancient vampires, or powerful Sin-Eaters.  Deities of other purviews may have been spirits, mages, werewolves, or other, stranger beings.

I don't think, however, that many gods were True Fae -- at least not originally.  As I see it, the True Fae are creatures of legend and myth, quite literally.  The Wyrd is fate, but it is influenced by the power of narrative -- without a good story, fate is nothing but chance, a series of random events.  Fate cannot exist with a good yarn tying all of the various events together.  The True Fae are the Wyrd given form by the power of storycrafting.  A particular storm god may have originated as a powerful storm spirit, but as soon as its human followers named it and anthromorphized it, telling stories of its exploits and interactions with other gods, a True Fae (perhaps newly formed, perhaps extant) took that guise.  But I don't think many gods originated as Fae -- the Fae are immensely powerful beings, but limited by the stories that give them form, and limited in their ability to craft stories of their own.  The True Fae simply aren't inventive enough to devise a new persona worthy of worship by humans.

So most gods, I think, might exist as several distinct beings simultaneously, each with a valid claim to the identity.  Father Wolf of the Shadow Realm might be dead, but a Father Wolf might still be roaming Arcadia -- and he would be Father Wolf, because he would have done and embody all the things Father Wolf has been said to have done, even if the original spirit never did those things.  An Incarnae spirit of storms might have been the being initially worshiped as Odin, but a True Fae would be the god in the myths told of him.  And of course a mage might well have claimed the role of Odin for a time.  And if that mage lived as Odin, was worshiped as Odin, and answered the prayers of his followers as Odin, then is he not, then, in a sense, Odin?

And of course there may very well be a vast, all-powerful creator God as worshipped by monotheistic faiths, and if so this being would not (at least not in every case) be something lesser pretending to be something greater.  But since this is the World of Darkness, such a One True God would almost certainly be of the absentee landlord variety.

But yeah... In my WoD, not only may a particular god wear many faces, many different beings may be (or may have been) that god.

Book of Spirits claims that some high level spirits have been called gods.  *cough* Luna *cough* Fenris *cough*
Death lords of the Underworld have been called gods before.
Exarchs, Oracles, and other Supernal beings have been called gods as well.  Hells, Supernal literally means Heaven, and one of the Exarchs acts as God.
The Fae certainly are strong canidates for god-like beings.
Some gods have been known to end up as Infernal demons.
Then, there's the Principle, source of the qashmallim in Promethean.


Its not that the WoD is open ended; its that every game has references to the same gods.   Vampire, Mage, and Changeling claim the same gods as part of their separate cosmologies.   Here's how I look at the pantheons:

Each "pantheon" is actually nothing more than a bunch of high level beings, pulled from the above list depending on that god's "theme," and seen through a cultural lens.   Lets take a look at Norse mythology.   Odin and Freyja are known as gods of magic, so they're likely Supernal gods.   Loki fathered three children- Hela (death goddess), Fenrir (spirit-wolf god), and Jorgmander (the Oroboros serpent, a potent magic symbol); one child for each of the three "near" spirit realms (Underworld, Shadow, Astral), plus poor, tormented Loki is cast as a demon at Ragnarok.   The dark elves that forged the various weapons of the Aether Pantheon are likely Wizened Smiths.   The Underworld features quite strongly in Bauldr's myth, and over his soul being held by Urdr or Hela (depending on the translation).

There is no single realm that gods come from- rather, they're fragments from across the cosmos mixed into a single unit by human imagination.

High Quabalist:

I'd postulate that many beings have masqueraded as the same God. Simply put in some stories Zeus is all-wise while in some stories he is just a giant douche...
Perhaps at different times, different beings claimed to be the same god

This is in fact suggested in a number of Werewolf supplements, if I'm not mistaken (Predators and Blasphemies, most probably).

While the suggestion comes from books for a specific line, I'd say this is kind of a foregone conclusion in any game that uses spirits as the World of Darkness describes them. Their very nature and behavior, not to mention their fondness of crossing the border between realms to muck with the living to feed on Essence, make it very likely for them to be seen as gods.

The only question that the ST should ask to him/herself then is if it won't turn into a classical egg/chicken dilemma. Are the spirits impersonating gods humanity had seen/imagined before, or were some/all the 'gods' humanity has worshipped so far nothing but glorified spirits? In the former case, the answer may not really matter, especially if it's a modern chronicle; the latter option may be very troubling for the PCs to find out, and that's the reason I'd probably go that route (at least with some 'gods').

All in all, it's an interesting subject to deal with. Of course, what will make it relevant in the first place are the particulars of the chronicle, much in the same way the origins of vampires only really matter to WoD/Requiem games dealing with related subjects, not to all games being run.

NOWOD:

What are these beings to whom we had onced worshiped, angels from high or low, good neighbors, their servents? 

If one looks at the gods of ancient polytheism, they see imperfect beings that are unfit to be called celestial and divine. They all have a degree of pride and arogance and temper problems, Zues is a adulterer and womanizer, and even the chinese deities is humanly beurocratic, which is probobly worse than hierarchy.

In a World of Darkness lense, they all seemed like Fae/fae, but is that the case? Are there some mythological pantheons that show characteristics of high divinity and do not behave like fae? Are there some gods who are worthy of their place within the rest of the supernal? 

I know people are going to say that the WoD is open ended and it's ultimately up to me, I'm just making a decusion/suggestion piece for everyone.

i like to customize things and i could honestly see the greek gods (for myself anyways) being a combination of qashmallim and the thing that should not be from second sight

Well our group is actually has a quite a few religiousmembers, 4 out of 6 being polytheists and worshiping “The Old Gods” you guysare talking about (and one catholic and athiest). In game terms what the godsare is never fully addressed. I think that trying to put a game definition onsuch an entity sort of cheapens both the god as a concept and the culture itcomes from. The way it works out for our group is a god is a powerful being whocan take any mode of action necessary to accomplish its goals. It in shortescapes definition by virtue of what it is since there is no universal theologicalagreement on what a god is. On any given day you find Anubis in the astral,shadow, on the corner of 5^th and Juliet, wondering arcadia, having acard came with Jesus and Shiva in the supernal realms, or guiding souls to theafter life, possible all at the same time while being the same being. But inour group it doesn’t matter because it has never actually came up in our games.

I would also like to point out that ancient myths weren’tconsidered necessarily true by the people that made them unlike Christian andJewish myths.  For example the Greeks acknowledgedthat the stories were the works of poets to create stories that helped explainthe symbolism behind religious practices, not reality. You can find very earlyaccounts of the ancient greeks actually being critical or mocking myths justlike any other fictional story. Their actual concept of the gods were sometimesradically different like how Zeus is worshiped with Hera as a champion ofmarriage while his myths would lead you to believe otherwise. 

NOWOD:

What are these beings to whom we had onced worshiped, angels from high or low, good neighbors, their servents? 

If one looks at the gods of ancient polytheism, they see imperfect beings that are unfit to be called celestial and divine. They all have a degree of pride and arogance and temper problems, Zues is a adulterer and womanizer, and even the chinese deities is humanly beurocratic, which is probobly worse than hierarchy.

In a World of Darkness lense, they all seemed like Fae/fae, but is that the case? Are there some mythological pantheons that show characteristics of high divinity and do not behave like fae? Are there some gods who are worthy of their place within the rest of the supernal? 

I know people are going to say that the WoD is open ended and it's ultimately up to me, I'm just making a decusion/suggestion piece for everyone.

Are you a God?


Don't take Gods and their myths at face value.  Just assume there's a grain of truth.  Zeus and Thor are related to each other as they are the God of the Sky.  In neolithic Europe, that's pre-Indo European invasion, there were two principle Gods, A male God of the Sky and an Earth Mother (it may be post Indo european now that I think about it).  These are only the concept of Gods that changed over time depending on the people that worsphipped them.

Say, for instance, that six thousand years ago a Mage developed the ability to fly and impressed the stone-aged peoples so much that they made him a God and worshipped him.  Or there was a powerful vampire that lived in the Earth that ensured fertility tens of thousands of year ago.  So, over time, as these people passed down their culture and their religion, varying interpetations ensued and before you knew it, there were several Gods based off of these supernatural encounters.

There's a show on the History Channel called, Clash of the Gods.  It's very interesting.  It showed that Athian punished Medusa for not being a virgin after Zeus rapped her and it had Jesus, taking all the souls out of Hades and casting the Greek God of the Dead down to hell.

plantman:

Well our group is actually has a quite a few religiousmembers, 4 out of 6 being polytheists and worshiping “The Old Gods” you guysare talking about (and one catholic and athiest). In game terms what the godsare is never fully addressed. I think that trying to put a game definition onsuch an entity sort of cheapens both the god as a concept and the culture itcomes from. The way it works out for our group is a god is a powerful being whocan take any mode of action necessary to accomplish its goals. It in shortescapes definition by virtue of what it is since there is no universal theologicalagreement on what a god is. On any given day you find Anubis in the astral,shadow, on the corner of 5^th and Juliet, wondering arcadia, having acard came with Jesus and Shiva in the supernal realms, or guiding souls to theafter life, possible all at the same time while being the same being. But inour group it doesn’t matter because it has never actually came up in our games.

I would also like to point out that ancient myths weren’tconsidered necessarily true by the people that made them unlike Christian andJewish myths.  For example the Greeks acknowledgedthat the stories were the works of poets to create stories that helped explainthe symbolism behind religious practices, not reality. You can find very earlyaccounts of the ancient greeks actually being critical or mocking myths justlike any other fictional story. Their actual concept of the gods were sometimesradically different like how Zeus is worshiped with Hera as a champion ofmarriage while his myths would lead you to believe otherwise. 

Amen dude. I disdain religious intolerance, and wish for a way to explain the gods without cheapening a culture and/or belief system. Calling the Kami True Fea may not sit well with shinto (even though they don't have a establish doctrine), and doing the same with indigeous gods seems a bit "racist" or something.

And what Blunt Vorpal said sound great!

NOWOD:

Amen dude. I disdain religious intolerance, and wish for a way to explain the gods without cheapening a culture and/or belief system. Calling the Kami True Fea may not sit well with shinto (even though they don't have a establish doctrine), and doing the same with indigeous gods seems a bit "racist" or something.

Well, it depends on the religion.  Given that Shinto is an animist religion and kami are the spirits of all things, I wouldn't think there would be much of a problem saying, in game, that kami are spirits of the Shadow Realm, since that's exactly what Shadow Realm spirits are.

Saying -- within the constraints of the game -- that the god(s) of a particular religion are spirits, Fae, or Deathlords doesn't necessarily involve disrespect to that religeon in real life, especially given the nature of those beings within the WoD.  Saying that something is "just" as spirit only undervalues the nature and power of spirits within the WoD.  And I'd think the only religions that would have a problem with fitting their deities into a game cosmology would be the monotheistic ones -- particularly the Abrahamic religions.  As long as it's done with respect, I wouldn't think saying that the death god of a certain pantheistic religion is a Deathlord (quite literally a god of the Underworld within the game) or that the spirits of an animistic religion are spirits of the Shadow Realm (which within the game is exactly what spirits of the Shadow Realm are) would upset anyone.  But classifying Yahweh as a rank 10 Celestine spirit (or anything else) seems to ruffle a lot of feathers, even though within the game there's nothing more powerful.

However, at some point, you have to say that a game is a game.  Saying that in your chronicle Odin is a storm Incarna and Loki is a True Fae doesn't necessarily reflect any real-world beliefs, and followers of Asatru should take a deep breath and relax.  Of course, it's a slightly different matter if a particular religion in your chronicle is the "true" religion while the gods of all other faiths are "just" spirits or Fae or Deathlords...

NOWOD:

Are there some mythological pantheons that show characteristics of high divinity and do not behave like fae

define "high divinity". Other than that... The Loa?

Well, among pre-Christian peoples a "god" was any being that received cult (i.e. divine honors, or worship in the form of sacrifice and votive offerings). This could refer to beings like Zeus but also included less anthropomorphic things such as sacred rocks and springs, and even illustrious humans like emperors and kings. Therefore a god is anyone or anything powerful enough to help you, and whose patronage you actively seek for that purpose. In other words, it's a job description, not a specific class of being. In WoD context, that could be just about any sort of supernatural being--human, spirit, or otherwise.

Also, as some have said already, be careful about confusing mythology with religion, as the two are distinct (insofar as myths about Zeus and Hera can have little or nothing to do with how and why they were actually worshiped in a given time and place). Also keep in mind that the concept of "pantheon" is entirely a modern invention--the ancients had no such notion and tended to worship whatever gods they were aware of that might be inclined to help them (and the perception and qualities of a particular god could vary drastically from place to place). Some gods were associated with certain classes of people, but modern concepts of ethnicity don't map very well onto ancient times, and in any case "pantheon" is meaningless in a context wherein the gods are infinite in number (which is any non-monotheist tradition).

Zen_Hydra:

The way I see it, "god" is a very subjective term.  Any of the following could be considered a god by mankind:

1.) Spirits (especially powerful ones)

2.) Spirit Claimed (especially demi-gods and incarnate gods)

3.) Vampires (especially as dark, carnal gods, or somewhat ironically the Aztec gods)

4.) Supernal Beings (see Spirits)

5.) Werewolves (especially nature and unsurprisingly "wolf" gods)

6.) Prometheans (especially gods of rebirth)

7.) Mages (especially godly avatars and miraculous messiahs)

8.) Changelings (especially minor gods, fey, and every one else)

An interesting list.  In a way, they all could be seen as gods, yes.
However, don't also forget that some may see some of these things as demons, as well, not just "dark gods," but beings in opposition to the gods.
Also, don't forget the Things that Should Not Be, from Second Sight, and Abyssal Beings (though the latter may be counted with spirits).  TTSNB take many forms, and some of them are worshiped as gods by mortals if you include them in your game.
I WOULD say, however, that some of these guys may not be viewed as full gods, per say.  It's a bit of a game of relativity: A weak spirit may have more power than an average human, but against a mage, werewolf or a society with access to anti-spirit capabilities (i.e. artifacts and the aforementioned supernatural beings), it may be shown to be the weakling that it is.
I agree that many different things and people were worshipped as divine; however, in terms of the guys LIKE Zeus or Thor, here's the list I would use:

1. Spirits of sufficient rank (usually 5+, though some rank 3's or 4's could get mixed in there).  Rank 6 beings for sure, and they can also send avatars to the mortal world.
2. Oracles and Exarchs.  The Exarchs are worshipped by the Seers; the Ten Seals are specifically considered to be at this level.  Again, they have their own avatars, as well (Ochema, who in themselves could get confused with gods).
3. Things That Should Not Be and certain Abyssal Entities.  Not all of these things are worshipped, but it's implied that all of the TTSNB are probably of the worshipable rank.
4. Qashmallim.  They would view themselves more as angels, probably, but it wouldn't be the weirdest thing.  Also, the Presense or whatever they serve.
5. Demons and other entitites of the Pit of appropriate rank.
6. Archmages, particularly with an arcana of 7 or higher (as opposed to "ordinary" archmages).  The Ministers aren't gods in their eyes, but they could be considered avatars of the Exarchs.
7. The Gentry.  Again, the average gentry (2 or 3 titles) can make their own realms, avatars and minions; the number of each that they can make goes up with more titles.  Even the weakest could be at demigod level power.

Other beings may get mistaken for gods, but in the Zeus-level, that's what you'd probably be looking at, IMHO

And don't forget Deathlords for the chthonic deities.  They're newly introduced to the WoD, but they're a perfect fit for figures like Hel, Hades, and Orcus.  And I'm sure they'll be expanded upon in Book of the Dead.