White Wolf Publishing

Are we going for a straight out tip top armor build or the most armor for the least effort?

Is armor the only thing that matters?

If you don't mind, could you not use the word "munchkin". In the optimization community munchkin is the word for a player who cheates,lies and is generally a jerk. So its annoying to see it popping up in places where it doesn't belong (such as here). I know it seems small but its not too hard to change.

By the way the correct term for what you are doing here is "theoretical optimization".

A sin-eater can gain an armor rating of 10 (+1 if he/she scores an exceptional success on the activation roll) with a lvl 5 shroud (using the grave-dirt key) and lvl 5 stamina (and that's without any hacks used, btw) by spending one point of plasm. Lets see if I can any more after I've got some sleep.

And I thought it referred to this.

For a Vampire they probably want to be crone and they want the Maiden's skin ritual roll, Cruac + Manipulation + Occult success are armour points (with conditions) for X turns (where X equals your Cruac) and there are a few other things you can do to boost that roll.

Servant of the Perilous realms works as well, harder to put a number of the number of armour points (as it's a spirit doing it) on but if your character is regularly offering stupid levels of essence for a bit of armour (It's the same dice pool as the above ritual, successes 1 point of essence) you probably end up with a pet spirit. (If not Auspex 2 lets you take a devotion to see spirits, find a bomb suit with a spirit connected to it.)



No I'm pretty sure they are using the word as correctly, it's generally held to be synonymous with powergaming in general. (It's a originally a slightly derogatory form of the word to be precise, but with the release of munckin associations with silliness are increasing)

http://www.urbandictiona...efine.php?term=munchkin

That it's used slightly differently in the optimization community seems more instance of a qualitative word having a more extreme meaning in a community that fit the common meaning of the word. If an entire community would be described by some to be munckins they probably need a harsher form of the world within the community.

I don't want to derail omicrons thread anymore so would you mind if we either moved the debate to pm or broke it off altogether?

i think, as a general rule of thumb, the stronger or the more layers of armor the more they inhibit the movement of the user... so, theoretically, one could have impenetrable armor... but it would reduce one's speed to the point of being meaningless...

With default spells, a Fate/Mind mage will reach the highest armor rating of any splat combination. Nothing else even comes close. As an added bonus, they won't be slowed down by their "armor."

*shakes fist at the skies*

Curse you, mages!

Thank you everybody for all these answers. I also found a Devotion from Immortal Sinners that allows one to reshape one's body to grant permanent armor at the cost of Speed and of being an ugly bastard.

With all these I have food for thought for a potential antagonist...

^ Actually, I've noticed the same. And if I remember correctly, there's nothing that says that shroud armors wouldn't stack with mundane armor (at this point I would appreciate if someone corrected me if I was wrong, since I can't really remember for certain).

If you'd combine grave-dirt shroud with a lets say, pyre-flame caul, you would be practically unstoppable. But I might say while I like SE very much and am quite fond of it, I've only had very limited experience with actually playing it so feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

Also, back on topic: You could achieve an armor rating of 10 which would be CONSTANTLY on while using some of the powers in second sight (from the section of things that should not be or whatever its name was). You could combine that with some of the regeneration powers found from the same section of the book to make some truly hard-to-kill antagonists (and it would truly encourage your players to think outside of the box: the only true way to end that antagonist would be to somehow meddle with the Thing that gives him the powers that he possesses).

^ Just for clarification: the vestment called Juggernaut is a greater (third level) vestment, so it doesn't grant you immunity for the whole scene but for turns equaling your vice dots (+ additional turns if you're willing to risk for Burnout, more about that can be found from the Inferno book itself).

I do think Mage is the way to go but it depends on how much you want to abuse the system and also count things not armor directly. For example

Full Riot armor 3/4

then have it buffed as a magical item for another +3 (you could in theory just go higher and higher) so thats 6/7 armor to begin with. Fate 5 for another +5 armor, so now we are rocking 11/12 armor. Then Forge Godsend on your armor. God send wont give you more armor but it does ignore its success's worth of DAMAGE (not dice) per round. So A godsend made with 4 success's will ignore the first 4 damage you take AFTER they penetrate your 11/12 armor.

I'm sure others can make it worse, such as adding that Mind spell onto it. Oh and thats not even counting any defense or use of Accelerate for further damage reduction.

I actually concocted just such a monstrosity not too long ago. The end result is a Promethean who I dubbed "Rocky." I'm throwing down the gauntlet and posting actual numbers, ladies and gents. Listen up!

Rocky is a Tammuz Construct made of granite, size 5. This grants him 2 armor from creation at the cost of 2 speed. His Bestowment is Unholy Stamina, allowing him extra resistances as well as the ability to raise Stamina above 5 (and therefore give bonus Health levels). We're also going to say he has Medicine 5, Resolve 4 and Presence 3. Finally, based on his MO he is definitely a practitioner of the Refinement of Iron (Ferrum).

For Attributes, let's not get too crazy and say he's Stamina 6. We'll give him Azoth 5, so that he can grab any Athanor you can devise. We're going to go with the Crab Athanor, which gives you permanent +1 to Health and Armor. For those keeping track at home, that puts Rocky at Armor 3 naked with 12 Health.

Now for the good stuff: always-active Transmutations. Rocky clearly spent a lot of time as a Centimanus, and thus has a few Pandoran Transmutations.

- Beastly Assimilation - Adds 2 more armor by absorbing something with heavy plating like scarab beetles or crocodile hide. Now Armor 5 naked.
- Armor (ooooo) grants him five more armor. Now Armor 10 naked.
- Perfected Bezoar - One of the most broken things ever published, this can reduce all bashing and lethal attacks to ONE damage. It can also downgrade the severity of fire damage, which normally deals aggrevated to Prommies and Pandorans.
- Refine Bestowment - Upgrades all Stamina rolls to 8-Again. VERY important for later Transmutation activation...

Let's assume that Rocky can't fit into Riot Gear, and instead wears Plate Mail. It's way cooler if you think of him as a sentient statue from a pharaoh's tomb anyway. 13 Armor versus most damage, 12 versus bullets and almost all damage is reduced to one if it gets through.

Now for his combat suite! Rocky can activate all of these in a single turn and still have a point of Pyros left to spend in the turn.

- Procrustean Shape can give you 2 armor versus bashing damage. Redundant with Perfected Bezoar, but this is a thought experiment!
- Magnified Potential (ooooo, [Attr] + Azoth) increases his Stamina another point for the entire scene with an exceptional success--bonus Health!
- Hard Body (Medicine + Azoth) has a cap at 8 thanks to Magnified Potential but grants him 4 armor on average.
- Unassailable Fortress (Stamina + Azoth) will give him another about 5 armor on average.
- Inviolable Unity (Pres + Stamina) needs to be shared with others in the party, so let's say he has a dog companion. Let's say he rolls 5 successes for exceptional success, which gives both him and the dog a free armor point. He then splits the five successes between them as bonus armor--the dog gets 3 (for a total of 4 armor) and he gets 2 (for 3 more on Rocky).

27 armor versus bashing, 25 armor versus most other attacks with bullets at 24 armor. Anything that gets through that's not aggravated gets knocked down to one Health of damage thanks to Perfected Bezoar and he now has 13 total Health.

Now for some really tricksy stuff! If you use the "Hard to Hurt" combat hack from Armory Reloaded, Prometheans essentially gain additional armor equal to their Stamina. With Magnified Potential active, that means Rocky's rockin' 34 versus bashing, 32 versuss other stuff and 31 versus bullets.

Finally, if you want to be a REAL douche you could up his Health by giving him the Giant Merit or Great Stature Transmutation, bumping him to size 6 for 14 Health. And let's not forget the Titanic Form five-dot Pandoran Transmutation too, which allows you to grow up to 4 more sizes! Grand total Health Levels: 18. Titanic Form also boosts your Stamina by one for each size you bring yourself up as will as giving you additional bashing armor. I'm too tired to crunch all those numbers though... maybe tomorrow.

So there's Rocky. He's pretty obscene. Thoughts?

OK, I did the numbers on including Titanic Form and they are potent. Much better than the previous draft with the armor (which he'll be far too large to fit into now. The base is still the same, and now his combat suite takes two turns instead of one. I have added the Giant Merit, making him size 6 and a total of 14 Health.

Now upon entering combat, his first turn he activates Titanic Form and Magnified Potential. The end result Stamina 11, +2 armor vs bashing, and an additional +4 Strength. 22 total health levels, now! The cost is that he suffers -4 to Dexterity. He's also now Size 10.

Size 10 isn't even in the charts.

His next turn is basically the combat suite from the first draft:

- Procrustean Shape: Still +2 armor vs bashing.
- Hard Body (Medicine + Azoth) now has a cap 12, but the average of 4 armor per roll is still the same.
- Unassailable Fortress (Stamina + Azoth) now has a massive pool of 16, and averages 7 armor gained.
- Inviolable Unity (Pres + Stamina) now has a pool of 14 dice, averaging a pool of 6 armor to be divided between Rocky and his dog and qualifying for an exceptional success. Both gain 4 armor!

29 versus bashing, 25 versus near everything else! If any damage gets through, it gets reduced to one level of damage--including fire!

With the "Hard to Hurt" combat hack, this now gives him a grand total of 40 armor versus bashing, 36 versus nearly everything else and 25 versus fire (Hard to Hurt does not apply to fire).

Did I mention that Prometheans never pass out from having their damage tracked filled up? And that they don't suffer wound penalties at all? And even if they SOMEHOW manage to kill him--with, perhaps, a nuclear warhead--Prometheans get one free resurrection. They can make for some great villains.

I don't think you can make armor out of folded steel, can you? Furthermore, does increasing it's armor's Durability add to it's defensive capability? This I was never sure of.

For the purposes of this thread, I'd use Stygian Caul for the Stamina and health instead, though the Pyre-Flame Plasm-reactor is awesome. And I think you can use Phantasmal Marionette to increase your Stamina to ludicrous levels for even more armor. I don't know if there are any other external Stamina boosts to throw on.

While we're talking about indestructible armor, a Soulstone (made by a Mage at the cost of Gnosis, Willpower, and Wisdom) can take any form and can only be destroyed by magic that deals aggravated damage and the caster must touch the Soulstone in doing so. Additionally, the Soulstone has Durability equal to the maker's current Gnosis. (Mage Core 227)

Using Mind 4 to cast Shape Soulstone (Tome of Mysteries 67) into armor that is befitting the Path of the Mage who created it provides them with powerful armor that cannot be pierced in but the direst cases. And if the chance of losing one's Soulstone is too great a risk, with Mind 5, this can be done with a stone from another Mage (though if they get their hands on it, they might be able to reintegrate instantly, divesting you of the protection).