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Changing Breeds vs. Skinchangers
kreider204
Monday, April 13, 2009 8:00:01 PM(UTC)
I read the descriptions for these two books, and I'm not sure I understand the difference, it sounds like they cover essentially the same things.  Can anyone clarify for me?



Thanks in advance.
Adamant Siaka
Monday, April 13, 2009 8:12:57 PM(UTC)

Skinchangers is mechanically sound and not full of reprinted information from the Forsaken core and the last chapter of War Against The Pure (which, together, are a wonderful combination making for very good alternate shapeshifter rules).  However, while it gives a template to determine the stat modifiers of various forms based on the animal in question, Skinchangers is not geared as strongly to player character creation, and its examples are a bit more lively and unusual - copy-pasted oWoD Bastet versus weird science experiment shapeshifting wolves, for example.



In all honesty, if you're interested in alternate shapeshifter rules, get either Skinchangers or War Against the Pure.  The latter has more useful information and examples on the subject in one chapter then Changing Breeds has in the entire body of its text.



kurasu
Monday, April 13, 2009 8:21:37 PM(UTC)

"kreider204" wrote:
I read the descriptions for these two books, and I'm not sure I understand the difference, it sounds like they cover essentially the same things.  Can anyone clarify for me?



Thanks in advance.


Changing Breeds is an unfortunately poor attempt at making other were-creatures like the werewolves from W:tF. Changing Breed characters are nearly identical in their idea to werewolves, being born as shapechangers but unknowing until their first change, though the execution of this in the book is poorly done, and in fact, has been completely replaced by a single chapter from the book, War Against the Pure, in which the same type of information is given for the creation of other were-creatures, but these rules are actually coherently written and much easier to use.



Skinchangers is a book mainly for creating antagonists, though it can be used to make PC's just as well if you want a slightly darker bent in you PC's. Skinchangers is about mortals, who through some low-grade magic ritual of some sort, can change into a certain type of animal. This ritual usually involes the skin of the particular animal, though it can use other parts, hence the name.



Hope that helps to clear up any confusion.
"Pain is weakness leaving the body"- said by a wrestling coach of mine
kreider204
Monday, April 13, 2009 8:32:29 PM(UTC)
Great responses, thanks!
Mr Gone
Tuesday, April 14, 2009 10:20:36 AM(UTC)

Just to simplify; The main difference between the 2 types of creatures is:



Changing Breeds is about other types of Were-Creatures, in the vein of Werewolves.



Skinchangers is about people who have gained(or stolen) the ability to shapeshift, generally into animals.
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Daeva Dude
Tuesday, April 14, 2009 12:15:28 PM(UTC)
The other major difference is that Skinchangers is a really good book, quite well-written, whereas CB is really poorly written and full of internal inconsistencies, unclear and poorly-balanced game mechanics and the like. 



You can get all you need to make and play a wide range of shapeshifters by having the W:tF core, War Against the Pure and Skinchangers. 
Shock
Tuesday, April 14, 2009 12:36:09 PM(UTC)

"Daeva Dude" wrote:
The other major difference is that Skinchangers is a really good book, quite well-written, whereas CB is really poorly written and full of internal inconsistencies, unclear and poorly-balanced game mechanics and the like. 



You can get all you need to make and play a wide range of shapeshifters by having the W:tF core, War Against the Pure and Skinchangers.





as much as i dislike CBs, it does have a reasonable good list of merits and favors but everything needs to be houseruled.
Quote:
“A fire broke out backstage in a theatre. The clown came out to warn the public; they thought it was a joke and applauded. He repeated the warning; the acclaim was even greater. I think that's just how the world will come to an end: to general applause from wits who believe it's a joke.”


Søren Kierkegaard, Either/Or, Part I
Daeva Dude
Tuesday, April 14, 2009 12:44:28 PM(UTC)
"Shock" wrote:
as much as i dislike CBs, it does have a reasonable good list of merits and favors but everything needs to be houseruled.




There are some nice ideas among the Merits and Favors, but there isn't much in the way of internal consistency.   Several of them are severely undercosted, a few are badly overcosted and a good number of them are written up so poorly that the game mechanics end up either being completely unclear or unworkable. 



I would agree with you that those sections are probably the best thing about CB, but a) a lot of the better ones (and none of the really broken ones) are already available in WAtP, and b) they are best used as a rough guideline, and any ST who wants to use them is likely to need to do some substantial rewrites.
Storyteller
Tuesday, April 14, 2009 4:51:28 PM(UTC)

Where in War Against the Pure can I find that information (which chapter)?



My son wants to play a shape changer in my next chronicle but not necessarily a werewolf. I just picked up Changing Breeds (to read finally, I have owned it for a bit) in preparation for the game but if there are better options I would like to take a look at them.

Daeva Dude
Tuesday, April 14, 2009 6:08:49 PM(UTC)
"Storyteller" wrote:
Where in War Against the Pure can I find that information (which chapter)?



My son wants to play a shape changer in my next chronicle but not necessarily a werewolf. I just picked up Changing Breeds (to read finally, I have owned it for a bit) in preparation for the game but if there are better options I would like to take a look at them.






There's a whole chapter on the topic in WAtP; I think it is the final chapter of the book.  It has some examples of different types of shifters, and general rules one can use to make other sorts based on different types of critters.
Maj
Wednesday, April 15, 2009 12:00:52 AM(UTC)
I still pull out my Changing Breeds, flip though it and sigh.



Oh, what you could have been. What you could have been...

DavidT
Wednesday, April 15, 2009 1:27:39 AM(UTC)
Just use the aspects and favors from the Changing Breed book.  Then use the war against the pure book to make the breeds.  That is how I did it.  I made a were eel that got a sky spirit give her weather three in one game.  It was a awesome scene.

Zombiewulf
Wednesday, April 15, 2009 2:50:13 AM(UTC)
"DavidT" wrote:
Just use the aspects and favors from the Changing Breed book.  Then use the war against the pure book to make the breeds.  That is how I did it.  I made a were eel that got a sky spirit give her weather three in one game.  It was a awesome scene.








 Ya! The Changing Breed book is great, IF you ignore the Breeds and just make your own.
warlock69
Thursday, April 16, 2009 7:46:49 PM(UTC)

Skinchangers is a decent book for antagonists.  Changing Breeds is totally player-oriented.  Besides the sometimes heavy-handed "ecofriendly" message, I thought Changing Breeds is a good book.  Most of the aspects & details described in War against the Pure are ported over directly to Changing Breeds.  The thing that bothered me, like so many others, is the imbalance between the breed examples (plus centaur men…really).


 


Changing Breeds incorporates the stat adjustments for the throwback & dire beast forms as presented in WatP, but not the war beast & primal beast forms.  Just incorporate these adjustments, and I think the game mechanics work fairly well.  Drawing upon mechanics from WatP, this is what I do:


 


The War Beast form provides a +6 bonus distributed amongst the breed’s Physical attributes, with at least +1 assigned to each.  The form also increases Size by +2 and grants a +2 to perception rolls.  Advantages are adjusted in accordance with the Physical attribute bonuses.  As already stated in Changing Breeds, War Beast form automatically provides natural armor of 1/1 and unarmed attacks inflict lethal instead of bashing damage.  These zero dot favors are free to all breeds.


 


The Primal Beast form provides a +3 bonus distributed amongst the breed’s Physical attributes.  The bonus can be distributed in any way, even a full +3 to one attribute.  The Primal Beast is approximately the same Size as the breed animal.  For animals that are particularly small compared to the human form, the Primal Beast appears to be larger than the average animal of that species but not freakishly large.  This form also provides a +3 bonus to perception rolls.  Advantages are adjusted in accordance with the Physical attribute bonuses.  Like the War Beast form, the Primal Beast automatically provides natural armor and lethal damage for attacks.  For the sake of game balance, breeds that become smaller in Primal Beast form shouldn’t lose more than one Health in their animal form.


 


Just to clarify, the Throwback form does not get the free favor of natural armor 1/1.


 


By default, ferals are assumed to have a War Beast and Primal Beast form, but not all do.  To handle this, different forms are assigned dot values.  If a form doesn’t have a War Beast or Primal Beast form, they can be exchanged for additional starting Aspect dots.  Alternate forms like the Throwback or Dire Beast can be substituted or added.  Changing Breeds also lists a Swarm/Flock form among the list of Aspects.  This form works well for particularly small species like rats or insects that are too small for a reasonable Primal Beast form.  Ordinarily, a feral breed only possesses a particular set of forms, but at the Storyteller’s discretion additional forms may become available after character creation.  The dot values for different forms are as follows:


 


••• Primal Beast form or Throwback form


•••• Throwback form (large species) or Swarm/Flock form


••••• War Beast form or Dire Beast form


 


As an example, suppose you are making a rat species feral, and the Primal Beast and War Beast forms seem inappropriate to your concept of the breed.  Instead of using the Primal Beast form, the Throwback form is substituted.  They both have the same dot value so it’s an even exchange.  Instead of a War Beast form, the Storyteller decides that the breed should have a Swarm form instead, becoming a swarm of rats.  Since the War Beast is a five dot value and the Swarm form is a four dot value, the breed starts with one additional Aspect dot at character creation.  If the Storyteller decided the only form for the breed is the Throwback form, the breed would start with five additional Aspect dots.  While the breed would lack the ferocious power of the War Beast form, they make up for it with other tricks.


DavidT
Thursday, April 16, 2009 9:49:01 PM(UTC)
"Zombiewulf" wrote:
Ya! The Changing Breed book is great, IF you ignore the Breeds and just make your own.




My thoughts exactly.  Though I thought up a locust breed that has no war form, no throwback form, and no dire form.  Instead it becomes a swarm of locust that can spread out to spy on people, escape throw small holes, and can swarm in on people as it rips them apart.  The problem is I have to think of what damage it can do.  I am looking at the hunter swarm rules, but I wonder if anyone else knows other rules that I can use?
Maj
Friday, April 17, 2009 12:38:36 AM(UTC)
Does using the last chapter of War Against the Pure and the powers from Changing breeds work?

DavidT
Friday, April 17, 2009 1:08:40 AM(UTC)
Yes.  They are both the same thing except the breeds that are being made in war against the pure are more balance, have more character, and generally more useful.  They have a culture and beliefs all their own.



You can even let them by all the aspects and gifts really.  Some of the favors should be more open.  I know for a fact that roaches have wings so should be able to fly.

Renfield286
Friday, April 17, 2009 8:30:13 AM(UTC)

I really dont like the "Game Balance" argument.



its about as convincing as saying "My stick isn't balanced against your gun, boo hoo" well, of course not, but things don't work like that (in game or out)



CB is a good toolbox, and taking ideas from it (and some of the merits) you can make some pretty playable characters.



in and of itself. its probably the weakest of the Nwod line.



incidentally though, it is also the only Core world of darkness book that contains major template characters.

Skin changers are still only a minor template.

Mostly harmless
Daeva Dude
Friday, April 17, 2009 9:58:04 AM(UTC)
"Maj" wrote:
Does using the last chapter of War Against the Pure and the powers from Changing breeds work?



Well, as I noted earlier, some of the powers in CB aren't really very cost-balanced against each other.  Quite a few of them give you a lot more bang for the cost than they should, and some fairly straightforward effects are overcosted.   Plus many of the write-ups of the specific powers are very unclear in terms of game mchanics.   I'd recommend using them as guidelines, but looking carefully at the cost, and be prepared to houserule how some of the powers actually work.



As to how to figure cost, use the powers from WAtP as a guideline.  If a CB power seems a lot better than a similar WAtP power but costs a dot or two less, the cost should probably be raised a bit.  If a CB power seems pretty expensive compared to the WAtP powers and doesn't do something pretty wonderful, you might drop it by a dot or so of cost. 
Daeva Dude
Friday, April 17, 2009 10:15:15 AM(UTC)
"Renfield286" wrote:
I really dont like the "Game Balance" argument.



its about as convincing as saying "My stick isn't balanced against your gun, boo hoo" well, of course not, but things don't work like that (in game or out)





Convincing in terms of reality, no.  Game balance doesn't reflect reality.   But in terms of what's good for a game, game balance is important.



Let's ignore WoD for a moment and talk about old-school DnD just for an example.  Let's say you have a fighter, then you have another warrior sort of character class - the Uberfighter, let's call him - that doesn't have any specific drawbacks and starts out as the equivalent of a fighter of +4 levels.  The uberfighter ss is tangibly better, such that if you have both around, the fighter is going to be vastly less useful.   That's what some of the more powerful CB templates are like compared to Uratha, Mages, Changelings, Vampires and so forth - and compared to several of the other CBs even.  Now, in terms of real-world stuff, yeah, it makes sense that a weretiger would be a lot more powerful than a weretoad.  But in terms of having an enjoyable game, there should be some advantage to playing a weretoad that balances out against the sheer power of the weretiger. 



When you look at crossovers, the more powerful CBs produce the same result.  Several of them - the bigger cats, the land titans and the bigger bears - are vastly more powerful than characters of other types with the same experience level.  Someone on the old boards posted some in-game reports about a mixed group of Uratha and one of the higher-end bear templates, and how, essentially, anything that presented a challenge to the werebear would tear through the werewolves like they were wet toilet paper.   I've sat down and compared the various sorts, and I can tell you, you can sit down and make the most combat-maxed starting vampire or werewolf possible, and the werebear is going to completely stomp it into the ground without even trying hard.  Moreover, some of the CBs allow you to be dominant in multiple areas.   Some of the big cats get so many bonuses to physical skills that not only are they dominant combat types, but at the same time they are automatically as good or better at infiltration and sneaking around than the most skulky-maxed Mekhet or Changeling.
neuronphaser
Friday, April 17, 2009 10:46:06 AM(UTC)
What does War Against the Pure lack that Changing Breeds might improve upon?

Daeva Dude
Friday, April 17, 2009 11:06:11 AM(UTC)
As others have mentioned, CB does have some powers that aren't covered in WAtP, and some of those can be adapted readily enough to add to the stuff included in WAtP.   I would recommend looking at them very closely in porting them over between the books, particularly in terms of tinkering with costs and some game mechanics, but some of them are pretty good as is, others can be fixed up pretty easily, and some of them really are useful for portraying some sorts of critters.  Some of the more mystic ones I'd be pretty wary of personally, but some people may find those work fine for their settings and stories.   
Adamant Siaka
Friday, April 17, 2009 11:30:46 AM(UTC)

"Daeva Dude" wrote:
As others have mentioned, CB does have some powers that aren't covered in WAtP, and some of those can be adapted readily enough to add to the stuff included in WAtP.   I would recommend looking at them very closely in porting them over between the books, particularly in terms of tinkering with costs and some game mechanics, but some of them are pretty good as is, others can be fixed up pretty easily, and some of them really are useful for portraying some sorts of critters.  Some of the more mystic ones I'd be pretty wary of personally, but some people may find those work fine for their settings and stories.





It's not really worth the price tag just to get a few more Aspects, though.  There aren't that many new things, and you'll be wading through bad examples and material poorly adapted from the Werewolf core book as most of the material that you'll be buying.
Daeva Dude
Friday, April 17, 2009 8:07:44 PM(UTC)
"Adamant Siaka" wrote:




It's not really worth the price tag just to get a few more Aspects, though.  There aren't that many new things, and you'll be wading through bad examples and material poorly adapted from the Werewolf core book as most of the material that you'll be buying.




I'd tend to agree.  But, the guy asked if there was anything in CB that wasn't in WAtP, and much as I think CB is a pretty crappy book, it does some extra Aspects and so forth, so in fairness I had to mention that.
warlock69
Friday, April 17, 2009 9:59:12 PM(UTC)

"Adamant Siaka" wrote:
It's not really worth the price tag just to get a few more Aspects, though.  There aren't that many new things, and you'll be wading through bad examples and material poorly adapted from the Werewolf core book as most of the material that you'll be buying.




Unless, you are not interested in Werewolf.  Only Chapter 4 of WatP gives information on shapechangers, the rest of the book is just about the Gauru and their on-going battle against the Pure.  The examples of shapechangers presented are mostly packs of bastard Forsaken for the Gauru to butt heads with.



The whole of Changing Breeds is about shapechangers: behavior, social interaction, culture, etc.  I don't know what you mean about poorly adapted.  The Aspects and character creation are almost entirely cut & pasted from Chapter 4 of WatP.  When I considered buying Changing Breeds, I compared the two.  Everything that is in WatP can be found in Changing Breeds.  The bad examples aren't bad either, thematically (except werecentaurs...really).  The problem with the examples given is their jumbled mechanics.  Why they didn't decide to incorporate the stat adjustments & aspect dot costs for forms like WatP?  Like I said in my previous post, incoporate these mechanics into the material and it works just fine.  It is a small but important fix that corrects the game-ruining balance issues.
Adamant Siaka
Saturday, April 18, 2009 2:07:45 AM(UTC)

"warlock69" wrote:
Unless, you are not interested in Werewolf.  Only Chapter 4 of WatP gives information on shapechangers, the rest of the book is just about the Gauru and their on-going battle against the Pure.  The examples of shapechangers presented are mostly packs of bastard Forsaken for the Gauru to butt heads with.




Along with the note that you don't even need to use Uratha, giving you the option to ignore spirits, Forsaken vs. Pure conflicts, and numerous other bits of setting baggage.  Besides, as I pointed out earlier, the volume of reprinted material with the serial numbers kind of filed off (and poorly, in the case of Harmony) from the Forsaken core is tremendous.  Additionally, there are Aspects that lean heavily on Forsaken and even Awakening to put to full use.  Shadow Bond, for example, still shows up in CB, even though it has no information on the Hisil to speak of.



Quote:
The whole of Changing Breeds is about shapechangers: behavior, social interaction, culture, etc.  I don't know what you mean about poorly adapted.  The Aspects and character creation are almost entirely cut & pasted from Chapter 4 of WatP.  When I considered buying Changing Breeds, I compared the two.  Everything that is in WatP can be found in Changing Breeds.




They sort of throw you into it with no real guidelines to speak of.  Rather counterproductive, there, to something that's supposed to advise the buyer on how to go about that kind of thing.  The maladaptations in question have to do with the mangled and nonsensical Harmony definitions, the "Delusion" that's really just a renamed version of Lunacy, and the speedbumped regeneration capabilities.



Quote:


  The bad examples aren't bad either, thematically (except werecentaurs...really).  The problem with the examples given is their jumbled mechanics.  Why they didn't decide to incorporate the stat adjustments & aspect dot costs for forms like WatP?  Like I said in my previous post, incoporate these mechanics into the material and it works just fine.  It is a small but important fix that corrects the game-ruining balance issues.




At which point, I must ask again, why would you bother buying it?  If you only get WAtP, you're down the same amount of money, but have example Gifts and setting and don't have to use the crappy examples that you just noted had issues that made their value as salable points in a product very questionable.  I mean, I went into buying the damn thing thinking it was, as you describe it, a resource for people that wanted to bypass Forsaken, only to find out that not only was there an awful lot of stuff that was rehashed and coupled with an irritating soap box that took up about half the book.



WAtP gave me a tool box instead of a soap box, and allowed me to see that Forsaken wasn't so bad after all, even if I'm unlikely to play it as such.
Storyteller
Sunday, April 19, 2009 12:48:33 AM(UTC)

Personally I liked the theme of Changing Breeds so I saw the first half more as a toolbox, than a soapbox, as you describe it.

Adamant Siaka
Sunday, April 19, 2009 12:49:35 PM(UTC)

"Storyteller" wrote:
Personally I liked the theme of Changing Breeds so I saw the first half more as a toolbox, than a soapbox, as you describe it.






Isn't that the part of the book with "Man the Despoiler" in it and the similar set of myths/facts that appears in the Forsaken core book?
ABERRANT_SCION
Monday, April 20, 2009 3:36:55 AM(UTC)

Just bought the nWoD Changing Breeds. I was disappointed big time. And alittle pissed off to be honest.

Why?



The writers make a point to mention Creating Were-T-rex are dumb. And not to do it.

Then they create a Were-Rhino with Flaming (Embers) skin. WTF?!?!?



How does a Flaming Embers skined Rhino-man not be dumb or just does not fit into the themes they encourage, while saying a T-rex man is dumb and cannot fit into the game. HUh ? I'd rather see someone try to recreate the Mokole' from oWoD than see Flaming (embers) skined Rhinomen running around. Also the Changing Breeds having only limited time to remain in War-Form (like in WTF) is dumb. The Gatormen being Drunks...DUMB.



Overall, I dislike most of the Changing Breeds too. Were-Rabbits ??

They should have recreated the basic Changing Breeds from the oWoD for those who like them. It would have save page count with all the dumb-ass new Rabbits, Racoons, Possums. Seems the writers hated the changing breeds and were making fun of the concept to me.

You Think we are the Same but you could not be more Wrong.
I am nothing you can Understand and Everything your Afraid of…
kurasu
Monday, April 20, 2009 4:16:25 AM(UTC)

"ABERRANT_SCION" wrote:
Seems the writers hated the changing breeds and were making fun of the concept to me.


They didn't hate all of them. They had an unnatural obsessive love of the Cat Breeds, as can be seen in Changing Breeds with how powerful they are in comparison to others.

"ABERRANT_SCION" wrote:
Were-Rabbits ??


They have nasty, big, pointy teeth and a vicious streak a mile wide!
"Pain is weakness leaving the body"- said by a wrestling coach of mine
SunlessNick
Monday, April 20, 2009 5:01:17 AM(UTC)
Look at the bones!
ABERRANT_SCION
Monday, April 20, 2009 6:01:50 AM(UTC)

"SunlessNick" wrote:
Look at the bones!




??? meaning ???



Sidenote. The only saving grace for the book was the ability to create your own Changing Breeds yourself.

You Think we are the Same but you could not be more Wrong.
I am nothing you can Understand and Everything your Afraid of…
SunlessNick
Monday, April 20, 2009 7:25:49 AM(UTC)
The killer rabbit in Monty Python and the Holy Grail, which I assumed you were referring to with the "nasty sharp pointy teeth" line.
Adamant Siaka
Monday, April 20, 2009 11:35:54 AM(UTC)

Tyrannosaurs are generally out because they are a great deal more powerful than most games are going to be able to handle in nWoD, as everything was scaled back.  But then, the same is true of elephants.  The war form is also temporary on account of the design changes in Forsaken, which moved toward the humanoid form being for fighting and pretty much only for fighting.



"kurasu" wrote:
They didn't hate all of them. They had an unnatural obsessive love of the Cat Breeds, as can be seen in Changing Breeds with how powerful they are in comparison to others.




Note the developer.  Note that he also wrote the old Bastet breed book, wherein we get a sample of what some of the old Crinos form stats were like before they were toned down in the Pumonca (who had Strength +3, Dexterity +3, and Stamina +4).
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