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Fixed and Houseruled Gifts - Complete (Ver 1.0)
LOOK
Thursday, May 24, 2012 7:32:26 PM(UTC)

EDIT: The Rage is now being errata'd here

This list covers every Gift from the W:tF Core book, focusing primarily on those that are considered under powered. I am balancing with an eye for making the effects enjoyable, and roughly along the power lines of Changeling and Vampire. The changes to Gifts vary from tiny tweaks for clarity to completely rewrites and restructuring of whole Gift progressions. I have done my best to maintain the theme and flavor of each Gift and stick to the original effect where possible.

My goal was twofold. First, to balance Gifts amongst themselves and improve those that had extremely limiting drawbacks or needless weaknesses that made them undesirable. Much of these changes were alterations to duration of the effect, or removal of the chronic "fails vs supernatural" flaw that plagues the system.
The second objective was to balance the gifts in a crossover setting. This isn't to say that I am trying to turn Werewolves into Mage 2.0, but merely to make certain that the general power of their gifts stayed in line with that of other splats. This often meant increasing bonuses or reorganizing Gift's placement within their respective tree.

I will do my best to assess and balance those Gifts with feedback from the discussion. But I will say this now: there is no way this revision will please everyone. Cherry picking is encouraged, for those Gifts that you find to be appropriate revision. As is civilized and constructive feedback on ways to better balance effects (inflammatory or unconstructive commentary will be ignored...sorry)

This remains a work in progress. Constructive commentary, input, and testing are greatly desired.


Every Gift list that follows specifies a "signature Renown". All Gifts of that tree use the Signature Renown instead of the renown listed in their description when determining bonus dice added to the roll.

See below for more details on Signature Renown.


Crescent Moon Gifts
Signature Renown: Wisdom


Death Gifts
Signature Renown: Wisdom


Dominance Gifts
Signature Renown: Purity


Elemental Gifts
Signature Renown: Purity


Evasion Gifts
Signature Renown: Cunning


Father Wolf Gifts
Signature Renown: None, Use Primal Urge for All Relevant Rolls


Full Moon Gifts
Signature Renown: Purity

Continued in Post #3.
Kyouka
Thursday, May 24, 2012 7:52:53 PM(UTC)

Great start so far and I am seriously considering using some of the modifications myself. I do question Luna's Fury adding PU to all attacks since that can be quite powerful.
Ephsy wrote:
Forsaken's theme is Savage Fury: not furball - the war machine. ;D
LOOK
Thursday, May 24, 2012 8:20:25 PM(UTC)

Note: Original Post Got too long. This will house the remainder of my edits.

Gibbous Moon Gifts
Signature Renown: Glory


Half Moon Gifts
Signature Renown: Honor


Insight Gifts
Signature Renown: Wisdom


Inspiration Gifts
Signature Renown: Glory


Knowledge Gifts
Signature Renown: Wisdom


Mother Luna
Signature Renown: None, Use Primal Urge for All Relevant Rolls


Nature Gifts
Signature Renown: Purity


New Moon Gifts
Signature Renown: Cunning


Rage Gifts
Signature Renown: Glory


Shaping Gifts
Signature Renown: Honor


Continued in Post #5
Kyouka
Thursday, May 24, 2012 8:25:11 PM(UTC)

So reading Rage Armor and Luna's Fury correctly, can I assume that you can activate rage armor ahead of time, then use Luna's Fury giving you 5/5 armor in addition to having your defense doubled vs. melee and ranged attacks?
Ephsy wrote:
Forsaken's theme is Savage Fury: not furball - the war machine. ;D
LOOK
Thursday, May 24, 2012 8:33:14 PM(UTC)

Edit: First two posts now completely full, expanding here!

Stealth Gifts
Signature Renown: Cunning


Strength Gifts
Signature Renown: Glory


Technology Gifts
Signature Renown: Cunning


Warding Gifts
Signature Renown: Honor


Weather Gifts
Signature Renown: Honor


Signature Renown

One of the greatest difficulties of the Renown system is how incredibly random the application appears to be. Within an individual Gift tree it is possible to have every single form of Renown represented. This can require players to buy up several different forms of renown, including non-favored ones to improve effects that are otherwise well within auspice theme. A lot of players are not fond of that. However, more importantly, it is confusing...really confusing. Having to record renown for each Gift, check and double check. Even for a mechanically savvy player it is a huge drag.

Dateweaver was kind enough to restructure the listed gifts into five categories, each tied to a separate renown that best represents the Gift Tree's flavor:
Dataweaver wrote:

Cunning: New Moon, Evasion, Stealth, Technology
Glory: Gibbous Moon, Inspiration, Strength, Rage
Honor: Half Moon, Warding, Shaping, Weather
Purity: Full Moon, Dominance, Elemental, Nature
Wisdom: Crescent Moon, Knowledge, Insight, Death
Primal Urge: Father Wolf, Mother Luna

As I structured each Renown's list, the left-most entry was exclusive to the Auspice that favors that Renown, and the right-most was one where the only way to have both the Affinity Renown and the Affinity Gift sync up is through the Tribe (that's also why I italicized the first and last entries).


Take note that Father Wolf and Mother Luna Gifts do not fall under any of the listed Renown. Being universal Gifts they are tied innately to the Werewolves nature and spring internally from their own prowess as opposed to being external blessings. Whenever a roll is required to activate one of their gifts the user's Primal Urge score should be substituted from the standard Renown. In addition, Primal Urge may be substituted for Renown when determining the highest dot rating in the Gift that may be purchased.

The choice of signature Renown for each Gift was borrowed from the "Emergent Beast" section of the Chronicler's Guide (a great resource for Werewolf fixes), then edited by Dataweaver and myself.

Those using Signature Renown may also want to use revised Auspice/Tribe Rules:
Quote:

Whenever a character purchases a new Dot in a Renown they may either learn a Tribe/Auspice Gift, or any Gift that uses that Renown. Father Wolf and Mother Luna Gifts are considered to be "in Auspice" for all Uratha.

______________________________________________________________________
Revision History:
Kyouka
Thursday, May 24, 2012 10:20:44 PM(UTC)

I am liking the Sand in the Eyes redo. I have encountered similar problems with video surveillance that nullified the gift quite easily.
Ephsy wrote:
Forsaken's theme is Savage Fury: not furball - the war machine. ;D
Dataweaver
Thursday, May 24, 2012 10:44:05 PM(UTC)

LOOK wrote:
After the heated debate in the Cost Effectiveness Thread and several mentions of Gifts being underpowered I got fed up and decided to rewrite them.
…and this is the kind of "fed up" that I like. emotion-1.gif
Here is Wisdom: Clarity before Harmony. (Also, clarity before brevity)

The essentials for a productive discussion:
Tact: Be friendly, helpful, and cooperative.
•• Candor: Be frank and sincere.
••• Intelligence: Think before you speak.
•••• Goodwill: Reasonable people can disagree.
••••• Reception: Listen to what others are saying, not to what you think they're saying.
LOOK
Thursday, May 24, 2012 10:59:44 PM(UTC)

Dataweaver wrote:
LOOK wrote:
After the heated debate in the Cost Effectiveness Thread and several mentions of Gifts being underpowered I got fed up and decided to rewrite them.
…and this is the kind of "fed up" that I like. emotion-1.gif


Thanks. I realized, "Hey, I've written entire Yozi charm trees (three to date), rewriting a few measly Gifts should be nothing at all."

As always, input is greatly desired. You should consider the list a first draft at best.
Darksider
Thursday, May 24, 2012 11:36:43 PM(UTC)

Primal Howl does have an effect (Father Wolf 3), I'm not sure why you rewrote it into something weaker (see top right paragraph page 115 of the core for the mechanics).

You don't make a Willpower roll against Lunacy, you are affected by it based on your Willpower score. Primal Howl allows vampires and mages (and other human based supernaturals, Lunacy just doesn't affect prometheans, period) to be affected by Lunacy, something they normally aren't subject to. See page 176 of the core for the Lunacy rules.

Edit. I for got to say thank you for taking the time to re-examine the base Gifts, at least you're doing something constructive instead of just complaining. emotion-21.gif

I'll sticky this now so we can discuss the changes and update the Gift lists as we get a consensus on an appropriate cost and effect.
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LOOK
Thursday, May 24, 2012 11:43:59 PM(UTC)

Darksider wrote:
Primal Howl does have an effect (Father Wolf 3), I'm not sure why you rewrote it into something weaker (see top right paragraph page 115 of the core for the mechanics).

You don't make a Willpower roll against Lunacy, you are affected by it based on your Willpower score. Primal Howl allows vampires and mages (and other human based supernaturals, Lunacy just doesn't affect prometheans, period) to be affected by Lunacy, something they normally aren't subject to. See page 176 of the core for Lunacy rules.


That is does, whew. I am glad I misread that, it had me so annoyed.

Edit removed, Thanks.
Darksider
Thursday, May 24, 2012 11:51:39 PM(UTC)

I actually used that Gift, that's why I was surprised you said it didn't have an effect. It was amusing to sneak up on a target and let loose with the Howl. It's one of the few Gifts that has a strong specific crossover use.
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Dataweaver
Friday, May 25, 2012 12:32:56 AM(UTC)

LOOK wrote:
Yet another werewolf -/+2 effect with a rather steep requirement. I increased the bonus to encourage stealthy and out of combat applications. Plus, this is clearly cunning based.
Oh yeah; that reminds me: we need to look through these in terms of which Gifts benefit from what Renown. Remember that one of the big complaints was that the usefulness of Renown gets diluted because the individual Gifts are all over the place in this regard; so as long as there isn't a thematic break, each Gift list should have a consistent basis in Renown.

From "The Emergent Beast" in the Chronicler's Guide:
Quote:
The signature Renown for the Gifts detailed in the Werewolf: The Forsaken corebook are detailed here:
• Cunning: New Moon, Evasion, Shaping, Stealth, Technology
• Wisdom: Crescent Moon, Death, Insight, Knowledge
• Honor: Half Moon, Nature, Warding, Weather
• Glory: Gibbous Moon, Elemental, Inspiration, Strength
• Purity: Full Moon, Dominance, Father Wolf, Mother Luna, Rage


If the above "signature Renown" differs from a given Gift's listed Renown, and the signature Renown is at least as appropriate to the Gift's feel, consider changing it. This is especially true of the various Auspice- and Tribe-specific Gifts (New Moon, Crescent Moon, Half Moon, Gibbous Moon, Full Moon; Technology, Death, Weather?, Strength?, Rage?), and not quite as true for the Father Wolf/Mother Luna Gifts; but it should be considered across the board.
Here is Wisdom: Clarity before Harmony. (Also, clarity before brevity)

The essentials for a productive discussion:
Tact: Be friendly, helpful, and cooperative.
•• Candor: Be frank and sincere.
••• Intelligence: Think before you speak.
•••• Goodwill: Reasonable people can disagree.
••••• Reception: Listen to what others are saying, not to what you think they're saying.
LOOK
Friday, May 25, 2012 12:38:17 AM(UTC)

Dataweaver wrote:
LOOK wrote:
Yet another werewolf -/+2 effect with a rather steep requirement. I increased the bonus to encourage stealthy and out of combat applications. Plus, this is clearly cunning based.
Oh yeah; that reminds me: we need to look through these in terms of which Gifts benefit from what Renown. Remember that one of the big complaints was that the usefulness of Renown gets diluted because the individual Gifts are all over the place in this regard; so as long as there isn't a thematic break, each Gift list should have a consistent basis in Renown.

From "The Emergent Beast" in the Chronicler's Guide:
Quote:
The signature Renown for the Gifts detailed in the Werewolf: The Forsaken corebook are detailed here:
• Cunning: New Moon, Evasion, Shaping, Stealth, Technology
• Wisdom: Crescent Moon, Death, Insight, Knowledge
• Honor: Half Moon, Nature, Warding, Weather
• Glory: Gibbous Moon, Elemental, Inspira-tion, Strength
• Purity: Full Moon, Dominance, Father Wolf, Mother Luna, Rage


If the above "signature Renown" differs from a given Gift's listed Renown, and the signature Renown is at least as appropriate to the Gift's feel, consider changing it.


I'm going to include this in the OP. Thanks.
Dataweaver
Friday, May 25, 2012 12:59:10 AM(UTC)

You're welcome. But instead of quoting me, you might want to consider listing each Gift list's signature Renown at the start of your entry for that Gift, with a brief note (probably before the first Gift list) explaining what a "signature Renown" is and what to do with it. Something like:

Quote:

Every Gift list that follows specifies a "signature Renown". If this differs from a given Gift's listed Renown, and the signature Renown is at least as appropriate to the Gift's feel, consider changing it.

One of the greatest difficulties of the Renown system is how incredibly random the application appears to be. Within an individual Gift tree it is possible to have every single form of Renown represented. This can require players to buy up several different forms of renown, including non-favored ones to improve effects that are otherwise well within auspice theme. A lot of players are not fond of that. However, more importantly, it is confusing...really confusing. Having to record renown for each Gift, check and double check. Even for a mechanically savvy player it is a huge drag.

The choice of signature Renown for each Gift was borrowed from the "Emergent Beast" section of the Chronicler's Guide (a great resource for Werewolf fixes).


Of course, that means that you'll need an entry for every Gift list, if only to state what its Signature Renown is.
Here is Wisdom: Clarity before Harmony. (Also, clarity before brevity)

The essentials for a productive discussion:
Tact: Be friendly, helpful, and cooperative.
•• Candor: Be frank and sincere.
••• Intelligence: Think before you speak.
•••• Goodwill: Reasonable people can disagree.
••••• Reception: Listen to what others are saying, not to what you think they're saying.
Darksider
Friday, May 25, 2012 1:11:37 AM(UTC)

yes, that's a revision I definitely agree with.
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LOOK
Friday, May 25, 2012 1:20:54 AM(UTC)

Okay, I've finished my first pass of the core book. As I said before, this is hardly a finalized list. I am certain there are Gifts I missed which are underpowered and those that I might have buffed a bit too much, so input is not merely welcome, it is essential.

I will apply the signature Renown changes later, along with some thoughts on the unlisted Gifts.

Thanks for the input so far.
Dataweaver
Friday, May 25, 2012 1:35:25 AM(UTC)

Typo: it should be "Shaping Gifts", not "Sharing Gifts".
Here is Wisdom: Clarity before Harmony. (Also, clarity before brevity)

The essentials for a productive discussion:
Tact: Be friendly, helpful, and cooperative.
•• Candor: Be frank and sincere.
••• Intelligence: Think before you speak.
•••• Goodwill: Reasonable people can disagree.
••••• Reception: Listen to what others are saying, not to what you think they're saying.
LOOK
Friday, May 25, 2012 1:37:27 AM(UTC)

Dataweaver wrote:
Typo: it should be "Shaping Gifts", not "Sharing Gifts".


Hurp dee durp. Thank you. As you can probably tell, this needs a big 'ol spelling revision. I'll get on that later.
CrimsonShadows
Friday, May 25, 2012 4:55:55 AM(UTC)

I just stumbled upon this. You guys have been busy. So far I'm liking what I'm seeing. I'll try to give a more thorough read-through when I'm less tired, but I'm particularly eager to see how the different Renown/Gift connection works. I think that's one of the biggest problems with the RAW, so if this makes more sense I'm all for it. emotion-21.gif
Dataweaver
Friday, May 25, 2012 6:40:24 AM(UTC)

For the record, here are what the Renowns would be if you go by Tribe, Auspice, or the "Emergent Beast" recommendations:

Crescent Moon: ―, Wisdom; Wisdom
Death: Wisdom, ―; Wisdom
Dominance: Honor, Purity; Purity
Elemental: Purity, Wisdom; Glory
Evasion: Honor, Cunning; Cunning
Father Wolf: ―, ―; Purity
Full Moon: ―, Purity; Purity
Gibbous Moon: ―, Glory; Glory
Half Moon: ―, Honor; Honor
Insight: Wisdom, Honor; Wisdom
Inspiration: Glory, Glory; Glory
Knowledge: Cunning, Glory; Wisdom
Mother Luna: ―, ―; Purity
Nature: Purity, ―; Honor
New Moon: ―, Cunning; Cunning
Rage: Glory, ―; Purity
Shaping: Cunning, Wisdom; Cunning
Stealth: Purity, Cunning; Cunning
Strength: Glory, Purity; Glory
Technology: Cunning, ―; Cunning
Warding: Wisdom, Honor; Honor
Weather: Honor, ―; Honor

Father Wolf and Mother Luna, I can understand; in fact, given their shared status as "common Gifts", I'd say that it would be perfectly appropriate for their Gifts to slingshot all over the place when it comes to Renown. Though in practice, they don't: most of them don't require rolls at all; and of the ones that do, half of them use Primal Urge instead of Renown. If anything, I'd consider retooling Primal Howl and Spirit Pack to use Primal Urge instead of Purity and Glory, respectively. Granted, this has the potential to overpower Spirit Pack even more by giving those with Primal Urge 6+ an extra Wolf Brother or two on average (remember, three dice give one success on average). OTOH, Primal Urge is expensive to raise, especially when you get up into the 6+ range (at best, it costs as much as a Non-affinity Renown); so this strikes me as being more a matter of getting what you pay for than an abuse of the system. I could be wrong, though.

I'm fine with Knowledge being associated with Wisdom despite neither the Cahalith nor the Iron Masters specializing in Wisdom. OTOH, Nature and Rage should really align with Tribe, since the only way you can have affinity with them is through your Tribe; and it makes at least as much sense to associate Elemental with Purity as with Glory. With that in mind, here's what I think the "signature Renowns" should be:

Cunning: New Moon, Evasion, Stealth, Shaping, Technology
Glory: Gibbous Moon, Inspiration, Strength, Rage
Honor: Half Moon, Warding, Weather
Purity: Full Moon, Dominance, Elemental, Nature
Wisdom: Crescent Moon, Insight, Knowledge, Death
Primal Urge: Father Wolf, Mother Luna
Here is Wisdom: Clarity before Harmony. (Also, clarity before brevity)

The essentials for a productive discussion:
Tact: Be friendly, helpful, and cooperative.
•• Candor: Be frank and sincere.
••• Intelligence: Think before you speak.
•••• Goodwill: Reasonable people can disagree.
••••• Reception: Listen to what others are saying, not to what you think they're saying.
Kyouka
Friday, May 25, 2012 6:47:47 AM(UTC)

For a first draft, I am suitably impressed so far.
Ephsy wrote:
Forsaken's theme is Savage Fury: not furball - the war machine. ;D
Kyouka
Friday, May 25, 2012 12:18:00 PM(UTC)

I figured I may as well give some feedback though on a few points that i believe are overcompensated.

1) Luna's Dictum. I feel that an hour per success might be a bit high for a 2 dot gift. Instead maybe 30 minutes per success since Werewolves have never been in the same category of mind control that Vampires are and as such, is not quite as strong for them. This also gives a natural upgrade path to Tug the Soul's Strings which would be 1 hour per success as you have mentioned.

2) Rage Armor. I have no problem with Luna's Fury, but considering Rage Armor can only be purchased at 4 renown anyway, it is always going to be a minimum 4/4 armor. I believe either the cost should be increased or change to allow armor up to a maximum of your highest renown based upon successes rolled and keep the cost the same.

3) Fuel Rage. I have no problem of it working in the shadow, but infinite stacking of turns in Gauru just seems a bit messed up to me even if you do need to spend 1E per use of the gift.

4) Primal Form. No problem with the change you mentioned, except I believe you should keep the shapeshifting roll to assume the form unless essence is spent.

Ephsy wrote:
Forsaken's theme is Savage Fury: not furball - the war machine. ;D
LOOK
Friday, May 25, 2012 5:48:40 PM(UTC)

Thanks for the feedback, I've made some adjustments. Allow me to explain my reasoning behind some of the changes.

Kyouka wrote:
I figured I may as well give some feedback though on a few points that i believe are overcompensated.

1) Luna's Dictum. I feel that an hour per success might be a bit high for a 2 dot gift. Instead maybe 30 minutes per success since Werewolves have never been in the same category of mind control that Vampires are and as such, is not quite as strong for them. This also gives a natural upgrade path to Tug the Soul's Strings which would be 1 hour per success as you have mentioned.


Altered it down to 30 minutes, you were right on the scaling duration. Though, even if the effect was indefinite it would still be grossly outmatched by Mesmerize. However, as you said, Werewolves are not social control engines. 30 minutes is quite long enough to accomplish most tasks.

Kyouka wrote:

2) Rage Armor. I have no problem with Luna's Fury, but considering Rage Armor can only be purchased at 4 renown anyway, it is always going to be a minimum 4/4 armor. I believe either the cost should be increased or change to allow armor up to a maximum of your highest renown based upon successes rolled and keep the cost the same.


Before I explain, let me make it clear that I am a huge opponent of rolling for armor.

Unlike attack and damage where a single fubbed roll isn't that big a deal (roll poor, nothing happens, try again), a bad roll on armor can literally get a character killed. Having to roll for armor makes the defense unreliable, especially in a pinch. This encourages more mechanically minded players to seek out more reliable power sources.

Personally, I take Mage armor to be the archetypal "good" implementation of an armor power. It scales from a low level, it is reliable, and low investment. Naturally I don't want to make Rage Armor a Mage Armor clone (the themes and applications differ quite a bit), but the format of a cheap, reliable defense is attractive. So I kept the cost at 1 Essence and used Renown as the deciding factor. I added the free while shifting to Gauru clause to balance it against similar armor powers and reduce the prep time werewolves need when headed into combat.

I've been using this version for a while in my own games, and it has been pretty effective there. Quick to turn on, reliable in a pinch, and the swiftness of activation keeps it from bogging down combat with dice twinkery and speculation. I think that's pretty balanced.

Kyouka wrote:

3) Fuel Rage. I have no problem of it working in the shadow, but infinite stacking of turns in Gauru just seems a bit messed up to me even if you do need to spend 1E per use of the gift.


Right you are. I wrote this before I properly read through the rage Gifts. Stacked Fuel Rage + Hone Rage + Primal Form = One terrifyingly beefy wolf monster with a worrying duration (Seriously, we are looking at +8 to strength and +6 to Stamina when moderately optimized). I added a cap to the duration stacking equal to the user's Primal Urge. That at least should limit the twinkery to PU 5+ Wolves. And let's face it, a Primal Urge 5+ wolf optimized for Gauru should be really really impressive.

Actually, now that I look at it, I might have to go back and change some of the Rage gifts. Several of them step on one another's toes pretty badly.

Kyouka wrote:

4) Primal Form. No problem with the change you mentioned, except I believe you should keep the shapeshifting roll to assume the form unless essence is spent.


I didn't include it in the description but by the book Primal Form costs 1 Essence and cannot be assumed reflexively. Hopefully that and the penchant for insane destruction will keep this balanced.
LOOK
Friday, May 25, 2012 7:08:28 PM(UTC)

Big, big edit to the Original Post:

-Added Signature Renown
-Touched up formatting
-Made changes to and added additional changes.

Edit 1:
-Made big changes to Crescent Moon, Death, and Elemental Gifts.
-Started Adding Overviews descriptions as to where I believe the Tree stands as a whole. Before and After the changes.

Edit 2:
-Revised up to Half Moon.
Ephsy
Saturday, May 26, 2012 7:54:41 AM(UTC)

You should mention an edit for Primal Howl, as written it basically contents with the stats of the targets, they dont roll to resist. If someone got Composure 2 and power stat 1 I'd need 4 successes to have them affected; 3 for the average human...

No single other power I've seen works like that...
Kyouka
Saturday, May 26, 2012 8:42:17 PM(UTC)

Ephsy wrote:
You should mention an edit for Primal Howl, as written it basically contents with the stats of the targets, they dont roll to resist. If someone got Composure 2 and power stat 1 I'd need 4 successes to have them affected; 3 for the average human...

No single other power I've seen works like that...


Funny how you mention that. It is quite odd to have a gift that requires successes above a certain amount in order to activate successfully. Usually it is a penalty to your dice pool instead. On top of that, it is nearly impossible to effect a supernatural being with this gift due to the addition of their power stat.

It is like you mentioned, many werewolf powers go to suck vs supernaturals
Ephsy wrote:
Forsaken's theme is Savage Fury: not furball - the war machine. ;D
Ephsy
Saturday, May 26, 2012 10:16:34 PM(UTC)

Should be contested, IMO, cuz if it was primary to work on normal mortals I'd rather get Mask of Rage.
Darksider
Sunday, May 27, 2012 12:34:28 AM(UTC)

I wouldn't tinker too much with Primal Howl, it's got some range and your target doesn't have to see you, only hear you (as long as they're in range). It's also giving you a chance to affect beings normally immune to Lunacy, I wouldn't make it too easy to succeed against other supernaturals.

I would consider making it so it only affects other supernaturals with a power stat equal to or less than the Gift users Primal Urge. It should be automatic against mortals and contested by the other splats' power stat, you need sucesses above the contesting power stat, and cost 1E per use regardless of # of targets. each target whose power stat that the werewolf's successes exceeds is subect to the Lunacy effect as if a mortal. I would also consider giving the target a penalty of 1 to their Willpower rating for each two successes rolled above the opposing power stat.

Example, ww has PU 3, opponent is a mage with gnosis 3. WW needs 3 successes and can affect the mage, if gnosis was 4 then the ww couldn't affect this mage. With 4 successes on roll mage suffers Lunacy (as a mortal witnessing a gauru form ww), 5 successes causes a -1 to effective Will, 7 a -2 and so on. You still make the roll against a human but the scale is -1 to Will for every 2 successes.

I think that works better and it's utility scales with the character's PU, as does it's range. Gift no longer sucks (not that it did before, this does boost the strength of the Gift).

So much for not tinkering. Edited post for clarity.
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Dataweaver
Sunday, May 27, 2012 7:06:31 AM(UTC)

OK; so you moved Shaping from Cunning to Honor. I'm guessing you did so in order to even out the number of Gift lists per Renown, and you chose to move Shaping because it was the least bound to Cunning. No complaints; just a brief note that this puts both Shaping and Knowledge in the slightly awkward status of having a signature Renown that will definitely not be one of the werewolf's Affinity Renowns. But so be it; some inefficiencies simply can't be avoided, and I doubt that it's that big of a deal.

Of similar (lack of) importance is the way you listed them: as I structured each Renown's list, the left-most entry was exclusive to the Auspice that favors that Renown, and the right-most was one where the only way to have both the Affinity Renown and the Affinity Gift sync up is through the Tribe (that's also why I italicized the first and last entries). With that in mind, I'd like to ask that you reverse Shaping and Weather: that way, each list begins with a Gift list exclusive to one Auspice, and ends with a Gift list uniquely favored by one Tribe.

I'd also reverse Insight and Knowledge so that as much as is possible, the left half of each list is favored by the Auspice that grants Affinity while the right half is favored by the Tribe that grants Affinity (with Knowledge, Shaping, and Inspiration being the exceptions — Knowledge and Shaping for the reasons I outlined in the first paragraph, and Inspiration because both its Auspice and its Tribe provide affinity with its signature Renown).

So, all set for a straight copy-and-paste if you wish:
Cunning: New Moon, Evasion, Stealth, Technology
Glory: Gibbous Moon, Inspiration, Strength, Rage
Honor: Half Moon, Warding, Shaping, Weather
Purity: Full Moon, Dominance, Elemental, Nature
Wisdom: Crescent Moon, Knowledge, Insight, Death
Primal Urge: Father Wolf, Mother Luna
Here is Wisdom: Clarity before Harmony. (Also, clarity before brevity)

The essentials for a productive discussion:
Tact: Be friendly, helpful, and cooperative.
•• Candor: Be frank and sincere.
••• Intelligence: Think before you speak.
•••• Goodwill: Reasonable people can disagree.
••••• Reception: Listen to what others are saying, not to what you think they're saying.
Kyouka
Sunday, May 27, 2012 1:45:22 PM(UTC)

You know, I always secretly hope that Eddyfate or Richt might stop by this thread, think it is an amazing thing, and turn it into an official errata.
Ephsy wrote:
Forsaken's theme is Savage Fury: not furball - the war machine. ;D
LOOK
Sunday, May 27, 2012 7:06:24 PM(UTC)

Ah weekend, how your devour my time...

Darksider wrote:
I wouldn't tinker too much with Primal Howl, it's got some range and your target doesn't have to see you, only hear you (as long as they're in range). It's also giving you a chance to affect beings normally immune to Lunacy, I wouldn't make it too easy to succeed against other supernaturals.

I would consider making it so it only affects other supernaturals with a power stat equal to or less than the Gift users Primal Urge. It should be automatic against mortals and contested by the other splats' power stat, you need sucesses above the contesting power stat, and cost 1E per use regardless of # of targets. each target whose power stat that the werewolf's successes exceeds is subect to the Lunacy effect as if a mortal. I would also consider giving the target a penalty of 1 to their Willpower rating for each two successes rolled above the opposing power stat.

Example, ww has PU 3, opponent is a mage with gnosis 3. WW needs 3 successes and can affect the mage, if gnosis was 4 then the ww couldn't affect this mage. With 4 successes on roll mage suffers Lunacy (as a mortal witnessing a gauru form ww), 5 successes causes a -1 to effective Will, 7 a -2 and so on. You still make the roll against a human but the scale is -1 to Will for every 2 successes.

I think that works better and it's utility scales with the character's PU, as does it's range. Gift no longer sucks (not that it did before, this does boost the strength of the Gift).

So much for not tinkering. Edited post for clarity.


Here I have an interesting dilemma. On the one hand I vastly prefer Darksider's proposed method, indeed in my own games I houserule Power Stat to be the target number over which supernatural effects must succeed. It makes elders more elder, chance die less dangerous, and players more confident.

However the system in no way supports this decision. And since this is supposed to be balance changes to put Werewolf in line with other splats, the only appropriate thing to do would be to normalize this towards the function of other powers. I will add changes.

Dataweaver wrote:

So, all set for a straight copy-and-paste if you wish:
Cunning: New Moon, Evasion, Stealth, Technology
Glory: Gibbous Moon, Inspiration, Strength, Rage
Honor: Half Moon, Warding, Shaping, Weather
Purity: Full Moon, Dominance, Elemental, Nature
Wisdom: Crescent Moon, Knowledge, Insight, Death
Primal Urge: Father Wolf, Mother Luna


Thank you! I meant to go through and do this, but you've beat me to the punch. You were right in that I moved shaping to balance out the Renowns, and also right that the change was not entirely optimal. I will implement this.

Kyouka wrote:
You know, I always secretly hope that Eddyfate or Richt might stop by this thread, think it is an amazing thing, and turn it into an official errata.


Ah, the great dream...

Though in all seriousness this list is hardly ready for application. It needs to be considered and re-balanced at least once more. Still, thanks for the vote of support. Assuming this continues to have a strong positive response, and input I may just have to go and do the Gifts from the expansion books. ;)
Darksider
Sunday, May 27, 2012 7:38:49 PM(UTC)

Once we have some more polish on the houserules I can replace this topic with something like an "Unofficial Houserules Errata Thread" seperate from the discussion thread, where the changes are collected. I'd like to leave this discussion thread up also as long as people are interested in the topic.
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LOOK
Sunday, May 27, 2012 7:44:59 PM(UTC)

Darksider wrote:
Once we have some more polish on the houserules I can replace this topic with something like an "Unofficial Houserules Errata Thread" seperate from the discussion thread, where the changes are collected. I'd like to leave this discussion thread up also as long as people are interested in the topic.


Sweet! That'd be great.

Also, a few questions. One concerning changes to Mother Luna and another about exp systems.

1) I love the Mother Luna tree, but at first look it seems to have a few toe stepping issues. Silver Jaws seems to be a slightly cheaper, significantly worse version of Savage Rending. Is this the case or does Silver Jaws have some major applications not immediately evident from its description. If not, I am considering replacing it with a Gift for dealing with Aggravated Damage (downgrading probably, with a slowish activation).

2) I have been milling over an Arcane Experience-esque system called Acclaim. Acclaim would be special exp, awarded by impressing spirits and performing epic tasks. It can only be spent on Renown, and perhaps invested into the Pack Totem. Is this something people would like to see?
Kyouka
Sunday, May 27, 2012 7:53:07 PM(UTC)

LOOK wrote:
1) I love the Mother Luna tree, but at first look it seems to have a few toe stepping issues. Silver Jaws seems to be a slightly cheaper, significantly worse version of Savage Rending. Is this the case or does Silver Jaws have some major applications not immediately evident from its description. If not, I am considering replacing it with a Gift for dealing with Aggravated Damage (downgrading probably, with a slowish activation).
I would try and avoid a complete new gift if it is at all possible to salvage the gift.

LOOK wrote:
2) I have been milling over an Arcane Experience-esque system called Acclaim. Acclaim would be special exp, awarded by impressing spirits and performing epic tasks. It can only be spent on Renown, and perhaps invested into the Pack Totem. Is this something people would like to see?
Personally, I have nothing against this as Mages and Prometheans both have something similar. Whether or not I would actually implement them in my game though is another story.
Ephsy wrote:
Forsaken's theme is Savage Fury: not furball - the war machine. ;D
LOOK
Sunday, May 27, 2012 8:18:14 PM(UTC)

Kyouka wrote:
1) I love the Mother Luna tree, but at first look it seems to have a few toe stepping issues. Silver Jaws seems to be a slightly cheaper, significantly worse version of Savage Rending. Is this the case or does Silver Jaws have some major applications not immediately evident from its description. If not, I am considering replacing it with a Gift for dealing with Aggravated Damage (downgrading probably, with a slowish activation).
I would try and avoid a complete new gift if it is at all possible to salvage the gift.[/quote]

As would I, but if all that Silver Jaws does is provide Aggravated damage vs Shapeshifters (and +1 Intimidate, woooo hooo...) then it is just plain worse than Savage Rending. Since they are both universally accessible trees it feels silly to have two Gifts that compete so closely for the same effect, especially when one is a lot better than the other (albeit more costly, but not a lot more costly).

So my reasoning was, instead of fighting, to let Mother Luna have access to the reverse effect. Downgrading damage is more in Mother Luna's "Body Adjustment" theme as well, as the tree tends to focus more on form alteration and flexibility than it does raw combat.

Edit: This would be the replacement Gift.

Quicksilver Rearrangement

Mother Luna teaches that the physical form is temporary, a template that can change at any time. Using this Gift a Werewolf can spread wounds and damage across their body, repositioning them to less critical locations and generally dispersing the harm. A bloody gash across the neck might be broken into a dozen smaller cuts on the arms and legs, a gaping hole in the chest might be shifted to bloody lacerations across the back.
This gift cannot be used to regenerate a crippling wound, a missing eye or leg cannot be restored. Nor can it be used to totally remove damage completely, merely downgrade it to a lesser severity.

Cost: 1 Essence
Dice Pool: Stamina + Medicine + Primal Urge
Action: Instant

Dramatic Failure: The Werewolf makes the wound worse, they take one point of lethal damage.
Failure: The wounds remain as severe as they were.
Success: For every success rolled on the activation roll downgrade one point of lethal damage to bashing. Alternatively, for every two successes downgrade one point of aggrivated damage to lethal.
Exceptional Success: No additional effects beyond the enormous healing potential.

Many Werewolf myths and tale involve a Werewolf being grievously wounded, even by silver, only to return again the next night with little more than scars. This Gift provides a major effect that most other splats have access to, but Werewolves do not. Healing Aggravated damage. It is not quick, nor efficient at its job, but still offers an avenue to get Urtha back on their feet at a respectable pace. (Yes, I am stealing Exalt names, so sue me).
Kyouka
Sunday, May 27, 2012 8:46:33 PM(UTC)

LOOK wrote:
Quicksilver Rearrangement

Mother Luna teaches that the physical form is temporary, a template that can change at any time. Using this Gift a Werewolf can spread wounds and damage across their body, repositioning them to less critical locations and generally dispersing the harm. A bloody gash across the neck might be broken into a dozen smaller cuts on the arms and legs, a gaping hole in the chest might be shifted to bloody lacerations across the back.
This gift cannot be used to regenerate a crippling wound, a missing eye or leg cannot be restored. Nor can it be used to totally remove damage completely, merely downgrade it to a lesser severity.

Cost: 1 Essence
Dice Pool: Stamina + Medicine + Primal Urge
Action: Instant

Dramatic Failure: The Werewolf makes the wound worse, they take one point of lethal damage.
Failure: The wounds remain as severe as they were.
Success: For every success rolled on the activation roll downgrade one point of lethal damage to bashing. Alternatively, for every two successes downgrade one point of aggrivated damage to lethal.
Exceptional Success: No additional effects beyond the enormous healing potential.

Many Werewolf myths and tale involve a Werewolf being grievously wounded, even by silver, only to return again the next night with little more than scars. This Gift provides a major effect that most other splats have access to, but Werewolves do not. Healing Aggravated damage. It is not quick, nor efficient at its job, but still offers an avenue to get Urtha back on their feet at a respectable pace. (Yes, I am stealing Exalt names, so sue me).


I actually like the concept of this gift but I do have a small issue with it. Mostly that it can be a far cheaper alternative to Rite of Healing and render that obsolete. If I can spend 1E to potentially heal 1 or more aggravated, why spend 2 essence to do the same even though it is guaranteed. Hell, you don't even need a ritemaster for this.

Downgrading lethal I could maybe see as is, but the cost would need to be significantly more to deal with aggravated. I would almost say that it requires 2 successes + 1 additional essence per point of aggravated damage that you wish to downgrade. This would mandate a minimum of 2 essence and 2 successes to downgrade 1 aggravated and 4 successes and 3 Essence to downgrade 2 points of aggravated.

This way, the cost is slightly cheaper than Rite of Healing, but Rite of Healing completely heals the damage and is guaranteed. In addition, any werewolf may pay the cost. This way you have an emergency heal during combat that can be immediately paired with yet another essence should you wish to instantly heal the new lethal damage.
Ephsy wrote:
Forsaken's theme is Savage Fury: not furball - the war machine. ;D
Dataweaver
Sunday, May 27, 2012 10:55:48 PM(UTC)

LOOK wrote:
Darksider wrote:
Once we have some more polish on the houserules I can replace this topic with something like an "Unofficial Houserules Errata Thread" seperate from the discussion thread, where the changes are collected. I'd like to leave this discussion thread up also as long as people are interested in the topic.


Sweet! That'd be great.
Indeed it would.

LOOK wrote:
Also, a few questions. One concerning changes to Mother Luna and another about exp systems.

1) I love the Mother Luna tree, but at first look it seems to have a few toe stepping issues. Silver Jaws seems to be a slightly cheaper, significantly worse version of Savage Rending. Is this the case or does Silver Jaws have some major applications not immediately evident from its description. If not, I am considering replacing it with a Gift for dealing with Aggravated Damage (downgrading probably, with a slowish activation).

2) I have been milling over an Arcane Experience-esque system called Acclaim. Acclaim would be special exp, awarded by impressing spirits and performing epic tasks. It can only be spent on Renown, and perhaps invested into the Pack Totem. Is this something people would like to see?

While I like both of these ideas, I don't think that this topic is the right place for either of these: keep this one strictly to the purpose of rebalancing published Gifts (possibly including ones from the supplements, if you feel up for it), and relegate both the creation of alternate Gifts and the addition of Acclaim (and even rejiggering the experience costs of Renown and Gifts) to a separate topic aimed at a more radical reimagining of Gifts and Renown. In this topic, note the toe-stepping and fractured themes, and point to the other topic for solutions that go beyond this topic's scope. Alternately, include them here; but clearly label them as alternatives, and also include a fixed-up version of the Gifts they're intended to replace.

Personally, I'd love to see a thread dedicated to creating alternate Gifts, built around the premise of Promethean-like "Gift Trees" instead of the existing "Gift Lists" (that is, with the old Gifts sticking around and new Gifts existing alongside them as alternate picks and/or additional purchases); but there needs to be enough interest from the posters to support such a thread, and it should be a separate thread. That said, I could easily see you rectifying some of the "fragmented themes" in such a thread, shunting some of the thematic oddballs off to the side and possibly expanding on some of them to provide variations on the Gift set's central theme — the most obvious case being the Elemental Gifts.
Here is Wisdom: Clarity before Harmony. (Also, clarity before brevity)

The essentials for a productive discussion:
Tact: Be friendly, helpful, and cooperative.
•• Candor: Be frank and sincere.
••• Intelligence: Think before you speak.
•••• Goodwill: Reasonable people can disagree.
••••• Reception: Listen to what others are saying, not to what you think they're saying.
Ephsy
Monday, May 28, 2012 7:20:42 AM(UTC)

Ok, Rallying Cry (Gibbous Moon) is virtually made obsolete by True Leader (Inspiration). One nets a single WP (albeit in any situation), the other has potential for several, above limit WP points. And both gifts are affinity for the same splat.

Any thoughts on these?
LOOK
Monday, May 28, 2012 7:35:24 AM(UTC)

Ephsy wrote:
Ok, Rallying Cry (Gibbous Moon) is virtually made obsolete by True Leader (Inspiration). One nets a single WP (albeit in any situation), the other has potential for several, above limit WP points. And both gifts are affinity for the same splat.

Any thoughts on these?


My gut instinct here was to make True Leader single target, and keep Rallying Cry a "pack" effect. That way both can continue to be used to their intended effect without massive foot stepping. Even so, True Leader is awesomely strong.

Dataweaver wrote:

While I like both of these ideas, I don't think that this topic is the right place for either of these: keep this one strictly to the purpose of rebalancing published Gifts (possibly including ones from the supplements, if you feel up for it), and relegate both the creation of alternate Gifts and the addition of Acclaim (and even rejiggering the experience costs of Renown and Gifts) to a separate topic aimed at a more radical reimagining of Gifts and Renown. In this topic, note the toe-stepping and fractured themes, and point to the other topic for solutions that go beyond this topic's scope. Alternately, include them here; but clearly label them as alternatives, and also include a fixed-up version of the Gifts they're intended to replace.

Personally, I'd love to see a thread dedicated to creating alternate Gifts, built around the premise of Promethean-like "Gift Trees" instead of the existing "Gift Lists" (that is, with the old Gifts sticking around and new Gifts existing alongside them as alternate picks and/or additional purchases); but there needs to be enough interest from the posters to support such a thread, and it should be a separate thread. That said, I could easily see you rectifying some of the "fragmented themes" in such a thread, shunting some of the thematic oddballs off to the side and possibly expanding on some of them to provide variations on the Gift set's central theme — the most obvious case being the Elemental Gifts.


I agree with you on the alternate Gifts and Systems Thread being a good idea. Though, I will probably still add the alternative Mother Luna Gift, with the additional note that Silver Jaws remains perfectly workable, just very redundant next to Savage Rending. At least then we can avoid people arguing over the redundancy.

I'll leave Acclaim out. As you said, this isn't the right place.
LOOK
Monday, May 28, 2012 7:41:48 AM(UTC)

Kyouka wrote:
LOOK wrote:
Quicksilver Rearrangement

Mother Luna teaches that the physical form is temporary, a template that can change at any time. Using this Gift a Werewolf can spread wounds and damage across their body, repositioning them to less critical locations and generally dispersing the harm. A bloody gash across the neck might be broken into a dozen smaller cuts on the arms and legs, a gaping hole in the chest might be shifted to bloody lacerations across the back.
This gift cannot be used to regenerate a crippling wound, a missing eye or leg cannot be restored. Nor can it be used to totally remove damage completely, merely downgrade it to a lesser severity.

Cost: 1 Essence
Dice Pool: Stamina + Medicine + Primal Urge
Action: Instant

Dramatic Failure: The Werewolf makes the wound worse, they take one point of lethal damage.
Failure: The wounds remain as severe as they were.
Success: For every success rolled on the activation roll downgrade one point of lethal damage to bashing. Alternatively, for every two successes downgrade one point of aggrivated damage to lethal.
Exceptional Success: No additional effects beyond the enormous healing potential.

Many Werewolf myths and tale involve a Werewolf being grievously wounded, even by silver, only to return again the next night with little more than scars. This Gift provides a major effect that most other splats have access to, but Werewolves do not. Healing Aggravated damage. It is not quick, nor efficient at its job, but still offers an avenue to get Urtha back on their feet at a respectable pace. (Yes, I am stealing Exalt names, so sue me).


I actually like the concept of this gift but I do have a small issue with it. Mostly that it can be a far cheaper alternative to Rite of Healing and render that obsolete. If I can spend 1E to potentially heal 1 or more aggravated, why spend 2 essence to do the same even though it is guaranteed. Hell, you don't even need a ritemaster for this.

Downgrading lethal I could maybe see as is, but the cost would need to be significantly more to deal with aggravated. I would almost say that it requires 2 successes + 1 additional essence per point of aggravated damage that you wish to downgrade. This would mandate a minimum of 2 essence and 2 successes to downgrade 1 aggravated and 4 successes and 3 Essence to downgrade 2 points of aggravated.

This way, the cost is slightly cheaper than Rite of Healing, but Rite of Healing completely heals the damage and is guaranteed. In addition, any werewolf may pay the cost. This way you have an emergency heal during combat that can be immediately paired with yet another essence should you wish to instantly heal the new lethal damage.


Rite of Healing is capable of fully healing Aggrivated damage, and it can be used on allies. Though from the looks of it, Rite of Healing is grossly over priced in activation (Mages, Changelings and Vampires all get much more efficient ways to heal agg, and Prometheans have it built into their base template).

I suspect the healing issue is in part a result of the cut back from Apocalypse (where Urtha were lightning speed furry murder balls who wouldn't f***ing die). Perhaps when Foresaken was written Rite of Healing restored at an appropriate rate, but viewing the system as a whole the rite is deeply under powered.
Kyouka
Monday, May 28, 2012 9:35:16 AM(UTC)

I actually have no problem with Rite of Healing. You pay a cost for a favor from a ritemaster who allows you to recover aggravated wounds at the cost of Essence. Remember also that other Werewolves can pay the cost as well for the healing of another.

Are other splats able to heal for slightly less? Yes, but that doesn't mean that Rite of Healing is underpowered or bad, it is simply different.

On the other hand, this change to Mother Luna's 3 dot gift now gives Werewolves a slightly higher cost heal that when paired with a higher primal urge werewolf, can have some immense combat use. Now at Primal Urge 6 or less it is fairly good with being able to downgrade 2A a turn should you roll well enough, but above 6 you start being able to do some ridiculous downgrading and even higher than that you can not only downgrade to lethal, but heal it completely in the same turn should you have enough successes.

Remember, if I have 2A and 1L, roll 5 successes and have primal urge 7, I can under my proposed system, downgrade the 2A to 2L spending 4 of the 5 successes, use the 5th successes to downgrade the 1L to 1B leaving me with 2L and 1B, and then use 2 more essence (since I can spend 5 in a turn) to bring me down to a measly 1B damage in a single turn.

Now I could have used Rite of Healing and healed 2A for 4 essence, but I sure as hell couldn't do that in combat nor could I potentially have another Werewolf pay the cost.

This is why I think my proposed method is fair as it is a trade off and has excellent scaling at higher levels of Primal Urge.

Under your proposed system, you would not only need to redo an extended action ritual, but somehow make it more worthwhile to use than an instant effect which has the potential to heal obscene amounts of aggravated damage for a single essence.

I am not saying your idea is bad, but overpowered in its' current state.
Ephsy wrote:
Forsaken's theme is Savage Fury: not furball - the war machine. ;D
Ephsy
Monday, May 28, 2012 3:20:04 PM(UTC)

LOOK wrote:
Ephsy wrote:
Ok, Rallying Cry (Gibbous Moon) is virtually made obsolete by True Leader (Inspiration). One nets a single WP (albeit in any situation), the other has potential for several, above limit WP points. And both gifts are affinity for the same splat.

Any thoughts on these?


My gut instinct here was to make True Leader single target, and keep Rallying Cry a "pack" effect. That way both can continue to be used to their intended effect without massive foot stepping. Even so, True Leader is awesomely strong.


Eh, makes no sense. "Leading" a single person?
LOOK
Monday, May 28, 2012 8:34:38 PM(UTC)

Ephsy wrote:
LOOK wrote:
Ephsy wrote:
Ok, Rallying Cry (Gibbous Moon) is virtually made obsolete by True Leader (Inspiration). One nets a single WP (albeit in any situation), the other has potential for several, above limit WP points. And both gifts are affinity for the same splat.

Any thoughts on these?


My gut instinct here was to make True Leader single target, and keep Rallying Cry a "pack" effect. That way both can continue to be used to their intended effect without massive foot stepping. Even so, True Leader is awesomely strong.


Eh, makes no sense. "Leading" a single person?


Leading is more than commanding large groups, bolstering individuals is just as much a leader's duty as it is to bolster the entire force. Think those scenes in war films where there's a great charge and one soldier is down. So the commander steps forward, pulls him up by his boot straps and gives him a "Keep going soldier" speech, renewing him for further action. That's the sort of thing I had in mind.

The other option is to totally rewrite one of the effects. Because as you said, currently True Leader is flat out superior.

Kyouka wrote:

I am not saying your idea is bad, but overpowered in its' current state.


After another glance through the assorted other Splat books I've reversed my opinion. You are probably right about the three dotter being too strong (Only Mages and Prometheans really have a means of rapid Aggravated recovery).

Here's a second try.

Quote:

Quicksilver Rearrangement

Mother Luna teaches that the physical form is temporary, a template that can change at any time. Using this Gift a Werewolf can spread wounds and damage across their body, repositioning them to less critical locations and generally dispersing the harm. A bloody gash across the neck might be broken into a dozen smaller cuts on the arms and legs, a gaping hole in the chest might be shifted to bloody lacerations across the back.
This gift cannot be used to regenerate a crippling wound, a missing eye or leg cannot be restored. Nor can it be used to totally remove damage completely, merely downgrade it to a lesser severity.

Cost: 2 Essence
Dice Pool: Stamina + Medicine + Primal Urge
Action: Extended (One Action Per Lethal, One Minute Per Aggravated)

Dramatic Failure: The Werewolf makes the wound worse, they take one point of lethal damage.
Failure: The wounds remain as severe as they were.
Success: For every success rolled on the activation roll downgrade one point of lethal damage to bashing. Alternatively, for every two successes downgrade one point of aggrivated damage to lethal. A single invocation of this Gift cannot be used to reduce an aggravated wound to bashing (that is to say, you couldn't roll three successes, use two to reduce the Aggravated wound, then the last success to reduce the newly lethal wound to bashing).
Exceptional Success: No additional effects beyond the enormous healing potential.

Many Werewolf myths and tale involve a Werewolf being grievously wounded, even by silver, only to return again the next night with little more than scars. This Gift provides a major effect that most other splats have access to, but Werewolves do not. Healing Aggravated damage. It is not quick, nor efficient at its job, but still offers an avenue to get Urtha back on their feet at a respectable pace. (Yes, I am stealing Exalt names, so sue me).


What I did here was double the cost, and make the prospect of in combat healing pretty unlikely. Statistically speaking this Gift will have roughly similar returns to Rite of Healing, but quicker and with the potential for greater restoration (since they are both the same dot rating, Quicksilver Rearrangement should be superior, due to its personal only limitations.)

As for Primal Urge 7+ werewolves being able to make enormous gains...I don't have a problem with this. Power Stat 7+ play is the upper end of the game's power scale. Aggravated damage in enormous quantities is quite possible and indeed likely. So arming Werewolves (natural combatants) with a means of recovering that damage rapidly only seems fair.
Dataweaver
Monday, May 28, 2012 8:55:58 PM(UTC)

Note that Rites are dirt-cheap with respect to Gifts (2 xp per dot in a Rite compared to 5 or 7 xp per dot in a Gift, or even 4 or 5 xp per dot in a Gift if you go with a "cheap Gifts" optional rule); and most Rites require extended actions on the order of minutes or even hours to perform.
Here is Wisdom: Clarity before Harmony. (Also, clarity before brevity)

The essentials for a productive discussion:
Tact: Be friendly, helpful, and cooperative.
•• Candor: Be frank and sincere.
••• Intelligence: Think before you speak.
•••• Goodwill: Reasonable people can disagree.
••••• Reception: Listen to what others are saying, not to what you think they're saying.
LOOK
Monday, May 28, 2012 9:56:58 PM(UTC)

Dataweaver wrote:
Note that Rites are dirt-cheap with respect to Gifts (2 xp per dot in a Rite compared to 5 or 7 xp per dot in a Gift, or even 4 or 5 xp per dot in a Gift if you go with a "cheap Gifts" optional rule); and most Rites require extended actions on the order of minutes or even hours to perform.


This was taken into consideration, though I am still concerned that the effect is under powered. Foresaken puts a heavy emphasis on combat and warfare, so part of me feels that is may be alright for a Werewolves to be excessively good at combat healing and recovery.
Kyouka
Monday, May 28, 2012 10:52:03 PM(UTC)

Your rewrite while much better in balance also seems to have had the fun sucked out of it. As it is in your current rewrite, it is basically a self-cast rite of healing.

My concerns with it is that it mirrors rite of healing almost exactly which is no fun especially if you have a ritualist player already with rite of healing. Others wouldn't be able to pay the cost, but so long as you get 4 successes, you come out ahead essence wise by 50% and if you are really desperate to heal, can spend 2 more essence to clear that lethal as well which makes it the same price as rite of healing, but in a fraction of the time. My other concern is why you would implement an arbitrary thing such as not allowing successes to downgrade aggravated all the way to bashing should you have enough successes to do so? Is there a particular reason why you felt this necessary?

Out of all the splats with the exception of maybe Prometheans, Werewolves are known far and wide as the kings of healing and the way you had it originally made that aspect of them seem to pop. Now werewolves in game had a choice depending on there primal urge. Do I spend 1 essence to clear a lethal damage, or do I take a risk and try and downgrade multiple lethal damage into bashing damage instead? It gave choices which is always fun.

That is one of the reasons I had previously mentioned my system where it was 1 essence to make the roll and spend an additional essence per point of aggravated damage you wish to downgrade to lethal or no additional essence to lower lethal to bashing. This made it feel unique (to me at least) when compared to rite of healing and potentially cheaper as well, but also much riskier to use thanks to the mandate of 1 essence per dice roll for an indeterminate amount of successes.

The upside is you take a risk, you get a reward and can potentially clear a lot of aggravated or lethal damage quickly if you are lucky or high enough primal urge. The downside is you waste a combat action to downgrade the damage

So you have your safe out of combat heal through the ritual which gives guaranteed linear results, or you have this gift which has the potential to either laugh in your face or shine favor down upon you. Mother Luna is fickle and so is the gift.

Do I believe the way I mentioned is a perfect solution? who knows, but I definitely think that it is more interesting. I still think that the way to go with this gift is to try and keep it a high risk high reward combat heal rather than another out of combat rite of healing.
Ephsy wrote:
Forsaken's theme is Savage Fury: not furball - the war machine. ;D
LOOK
Tuesday, May 29, 2012 8:24:51 PM(UTC)

Kyouka wrote:
Your rewrite while much better in balance also seems to have had the fun sucked out of it. As it is in your current rewrite, it is basically a self-cast rite of healing.

My concerns with it is that it mirrors rite of healing almost exactly which is no fun especially if you have a ritualist player already with rite of healing. Others wouldn't be able to pay the cost, but so long as you get 4 successes, you come out ahead essence wise by 50% and if you are really desperate to heal, can spend 2 more essence to clear that lethal as well which makes it the same price as rite of healing, but in a fraction of the time. My other concern is why you would implement an arbitrary thing such as not allowing successes to downgrade aggravated all the way to bashing should you have enough successes to do so? Is there a particular reason why you felt this necessary?

Out of all the splats with the exception of maybe Prometheans, Werewolves are known far and wide as the kings of healing and the way you had it originally made that aspect of them seem to pop. Now werewolves in game had a choice depending on there primal urge. Do I spend 1 essence to clear a lethal damage, or do I take a risk and try and downgrade multiple lethal damage into bashing damage instead? It gave choices which is always fun.

That is one of the reasons I had previously mentioned my system where it was 1 essence to make the roll and spend an additional essence per point of aggravated damage you wish to downgrade to lethal or no additional essence to lower lethal to bashing. This made it feel unique (to me at least) when compared to rite of healing and potentially cheaper as well, but also much riskier to use thanks to the mandate of 1 essence per dice roll for an indeterminate amount of successes.

The upside is you take a risk, you get a reward and can potentially clear a lot of aggravated or lethal damage quickly if you are lucky or high enough primal urge. The downside is you waste a combat action to downgrade the damage

So you have your safe out of combat heal through the ritual which gives guaranteed linear results, or you have this gift which has the potential to either laugh in your face or shine favor down upon you. Mother Luna is fickle and so is the gift.

Do I believe the way I mentioned is a perfect solution? who knows, but I definitely think that it is more interesting. I still think that the way to go with this gift is to try and keep it a high risk high reward combat heal rather than another out of combat rite of healing.


Alright, I've done some more thinking on the matter and here is where I stand:

I am still unsure of exactly how to balance Quicksilver Rearrangement, but have become increasingly confident the current execution is still lack luster. From what I gather, for it to be appropriately different from Rite of Healing, Quicksilver Rearrangement must provide in combat healing potential and higher possible returns.

As Dataweaver pointed out, Rite of Healing is much cheaper to learn (15xp cheaper to be specific), and has greater group utility. Therefore it is only right that Quicksilver Rearrangement be slightly stronger. This being the case the "two successes and one point of essence per agg" method remains lackluster (and actually costs more overall for less effective healing). For one, unless seriously optimized for it is unlikely to provide returns any greater than Rite of Healing (average 1 success per 3 dice, so 12 dice min to have an average chance to downgrade as much as Rite of Healing guarantees). Werewolf spending limits are also a concern, as to successfully downgrade just two points of Aggravated damage would take three full actions out of combat (not debilitating, but certainly costly), in order to fully heal the damage the werewolf would have to toss another two points of essence to recover the lethal, bringing the total up to 5 Essence for 2A.

All-in-all, too costly. And I don't think the speed of application offsets the requirements. Given that this entire issue only results from crossover difficulty (that is to say, in a purely werewolf game the weakness is equal across the board), investigating how the other splats handle severe damage seemed the rite path.

I looked through a few other splat books to get some inspiration, the breakdown goes like this: Prometheans and Mages are the kings of agg healing, able to recover large swaths of damage at low cost (via electric outlet for Prommie, and with Life 3 for Mage). In third, surprisingly, is Changeling. They have an unexpected variety of methods for recovering from aggravated damage, though all at a cost and none at "in combat" speed. Geist falls fourth with its oft lauded damage dodging plasm application. Vampire falls in last, slightly after Werewolf, as they rely on either very expensive devotions or a long nights sleep.

Given their focus on combat it feels as though Werewolves should probably fall somewhere between Prometheans and Changelings in terms of sheer recovery power. Quicker than changelings without being an absurdly efficient as Prometheans (seriously, even Mages don't hold a candle to Promethean's personal healing potential). The result is this:

Quote:

Quicksilver Rearrangement (ooo)

Cost: 2 Essence
Dice Pool: Stamina + Survival + Primal Urge
Activation: Reflexive

[Insert fluff here]. Every success on the activation downgrades one aggravated wound to two lethal wounds, or downgrades a lethal wound to a bashing wound, player's choice. The wounds are downgraded at one per level per action, starting on the action in which this Gift is activated. While active the Werewolf may take actions as normal, but suffers a -2 penalty to all physical rolls due to the shifting of his form. Only one instance of this effect may be active at any one time.


So, to detail. This version has the potential to provide much more healing at a greater speed than Rite of Healing. However that healing is both exclusively personal, and requires the additional expenditure of Essence or time to actually remove entirely.

As for options consider this example: Fluffy (a PU 4 Rahu) has two aggravated wounds, he activates Quicksilver Rearrangement and rolls, let's say, 4 successes. His first action downgrades one aggravated into two lethal, now he has options. On the second action he could opt to downgrade that second agg and seat himself with 4 lethal, then spend the next two actions downgrading and healing two of those. Alternatively he could downgrade the lethal now and save the aggravated wound for last. If he wanted to spend more essence, however, he could heal those two lethal wounds entirely and downgrade that aggravated one, leaving him with only two lethal which he could drop to bashing in the following two turns.
Of course, this all assumes Fluffy isn't being pulverized by enemies at the moment (and if he is considering spending essence to heal, he probably is).

Given that Quicksilver Rearrangement is 15 xp more expensive, can't heal the Werewolf's buddies, can't actually be activated reflexively till Primal Urge 4+, and costs an alarming amount of Essence the genuinely heal the wounds...I believe this balances out nicely.

I'd like to do some actual gameplay/mechanical testing before further revisions are made.

LOOK
Tuesday, May 29, 2012 9:21:28 PM(UTC)

A question to the board. Rage Gifts, balanced? Unbalanced? Too narrow?

I've never used them myself and it seems as though a few of them, notably Scoured Rage and Leech Rage, might be a touch on the weakish side. Of course, on the other hand Hone Rage + Leech Rage + A Willing Urtha ally = substantial bonuses to strength for an impressive period of time. But is that unbalanced? I don't know, my gut says it isn't.

Also, Rage's interaction with Half-Moon Gifts. Both the fourth and fifth dot of Half-Moon make better Rage Gifts than most of the Rage tree. But changing that would be an extremely significant alteration. Is it appropriate for Elodoth's to be better rage master than...Rage masters?
Kyouka
Tuesday, May 29, 2012 10:10:45 PM(UTC)

LOOK wrote:
Quicksilver Rearrangement (ooo)

Cost: 2 Essence
Dice Pool: Stamina + Survival + Primal Urge
Activation: Reflexive

[Insert fluff here]. Every success on the activation downgrades one aggravated wound to two lethal wounds, or downgrades a lethal wound to a bashing wound, player's choice. The wounds are downgraded at one per level per action, starting on the action in which this Gift is activated. While active the Werewolf may take actions as normal, but suffers a -2 penalty to all physical rolls due to the shifting of his form. Only one instance of this effect may be active at any one time.
This version has my seal of approval so far as it definitely gives some things to consider on how you want to heal. Also keep in mind that you can use this before primal urge 4, but just like a few other gifts, it would require you to spend 2 turns to activate the gift. The real question is let us say you roll 5 successes and you have 6 lethal damage and you are Primal Urge 4 as well. Now each turn you would downgrade 1 lethal into bashing, but can you also on the following turn spend an essence for normal healing to completely wipe out that 6th lethal damage?

What I am also trying to figure out as well is does this take the place of your normal healing per turn. Reason being is if I have 5 lethal and I roll 5 successes, on turn 1, I downgrade 1 lethal to a bashing damage, then on turn 2, I would downgrade another lethal into a bashing damage, but also heal that bashing damage from turn 1 as well.

I personally find no problem with having this gift stack with your normal healing as one is a gift, the other is a natural trait of werewolves.
LOOK wrote:
A question to the board. Rage Gifts, balanced? Unbalanced? Too narrow?

I've never used them myself and it seems as though a few of them, notably Scoured Rage and Leech Rage, might be a touch on the weakish side.
Personally, I think Leech Rage is a great gift vs other werewolves since it lowers their turns in Gauru and gives you more turns. I feel that it is balanced because it is very strong, but splat specific. I think Soured Rage on the other hand is a bit weak for a 5 dot.
Ephsy wrote:
Forsaken's theme is Savage Fury: not furball - the war machine. ;D
LOOK
Tuesday, May 29, 2012 10:17:57 PM(UTC)

Kyouka wrote:

What I am also trying to figure out as well is does this take the place of your normal healing per turn. Reason being is if I have 5 lethal and I roll 5 successes, on turn 1, I downgrade 1 lethal to a bashing damage, then on turn 2, I would downgrade another lethal into a bashing damage, but also heal that bashing damage from turn 1 as well.

I personally find no problem with having this gift stack with your normal healing as one is a gift, the other is a natural trait of werewolves.


The intent was for it to stack with normal healing such that a Werewolf who rolled well could recover quite a bit of damage at low cost. As is Werewolves supposed incredible natural healing factor doesn't really play that big a role in lethal combat.

Kyouka wrote:

Personally, I think Leech Rage is a great gift vs other werewolves since it lowers their turns in Gauru and gives you more turns. I feel that it is balanced because it is very strong, but splat specific. I think Soured Rage on the other hand is a bit weak for a 5 dot.


Those were my thoughts as well. Which means I need to come up with a fixed Scoured Rage...bother. My opinion on the utility of Gauru is already pretty poor...

Edit: Pass #2 is basically complete. I am still touching up Gifts of Weather and Rage, but for the most part this second draft is complete.
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