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Heavy Metal: Complete Colossus Rules and Charms (Now Testing)
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ChainsawXIV
Monday, August 13, 2012 4:39:18 AM(UTC)
#1

This thread contains the following:

So, grab a cup of kaf and a ration of nutrient slurry, have a good long read, and let me know what you think – constructive feedback and ideas are very welcome.

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The Colossus Transformation
The Exalted of Creation find enlightenment through introspection and study of their own nature. While this inward focus is certainly a key part of an Alchemical’s advancement, the simple reality is that their transformation is at least as much physical as spiritual. The transition from Champion to Colossus is, in itself, considerably more meaningful to an Alchemical than to the Chosen of the Gods, and the obvious superficial differences are only the outward expression of that evolution.

A Champion’s upgrade to the ranks of the Colossi takes place in a vats complex provided by his sponsor state, in a refitting process which requires months to complete. During this process the Champion’s body is stripped away and rendered down into exotic components to be used in the construction of his new form. His essence reservoir and sections of his nervous system are preserved, sealed inside a nearly indestructible vessel of his associated magical material with his soul gem affixed, and it is this module that will serve as the core of the Exalt’s being for an eternity thereafter.

The module is then installed into the first of the Alchemical’s Colossus Charms – an artifact-body of epic scale and power, in the form of his first Transfiguration Charm, constructed at great expense in anticipation of the character’s ascent. The details of this form are always particular to the Alchemical himself – many are humanoid in form, though other more radically different body plans are not uncommon where needed – but while a Colossus might wear several forms in his long life, each is uniquely his own and cannot be worn by another.
The Price of Change wrote:
The material cost of upgrading a Champion’s essence is relatively small by comparison to the cost of his initial construction. The cost of the transition from Champion to Colossus however is fit to bankrupt nations. For game purposes, it should usually be assumed that a sponsor state manages to make resources (equivalent to at least Wealth ••••) available as needed – it is universally considered to be worth the investment – but such costs can easily strain a state’s economy.

The majority of this cost reflects the physical construction of the Alchemical’s new body, in the form of his first Transfiguration Charm. A Colossus’s first Transfiguration Charm is most often of human body plan, but other variations are available, and he may have more than one at his disposal. Each such Charm bears similar cost to the first however, as do their Essence 7 upgrades, so a Champion and his sponsor state must choose forms wisely.

Beyond the traits specific to his choice of transfigurations, all such charms render a Colossus physically tougher and more isolated from injury than their flesh and blood counterparts. Without the physical needs of his body to contend for an Alchemical’s essence, his new form also enables him to devote more of his personal power to the operation of Charms and other magic. These and other benefits are captured in the Colossus’s Transfiguration Charms, but all Colossi also gain the following benefits upon the completion of the upgrade to Essence 6:

  • The Colossus gains a single Transfiguration Charm at no extra cost to himself
  • The Colossus no longer needs eat or drink, nor indeed is he able to do so at all
Colossal Equipment wrote:
A Colossus’s sheer size, to say nothing of his body shape for an Alchemical using a non-humanoid Transfiguration, often make it physically impossible for him to use artifacts designed for characters of human stature. The majority of artifacts can be adapted for use by a Colossus – reengineered along larger lines and rearranged to fit whatever body plan the Exalt has chosen – and charms like Panoply Scalar Engine offer similar options at a moment’s notice.
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ChainsawXIV
Monday, August 13, 2012 4:40:16 AM(UTC)
#2

Updated Alchemical Charms
The operation of Alchemical Charms presented in Manual of Exalted Power: Alchemicals and elsewhere is largely unchanged for Colossi. In many cases Charms which describe alterations to specific portions of a Champion’s anatomy take on a significantly different physical form when installed for use by a Colossus, but these changes are ultimately superficial in nature, and the Charms function almost universally in the same capacity they did earlier in an Exalt’s life.

Many Charms do offer additional or expanded benefits for a Colossus however, as befits the greater power of so elder and enlightened a being. In some cases this takes the form of additional or modified effects, but most commonly it is expressed in the form of high Essence submodules which expand upon themes and nature of the Colossal condition. These additional features are described below.
Colossus Charm Themes wrote:
At their conceptual core, Colossus Charms adhere to the same thematic principles as other Alchemical Charms – they are technological in concept, and each Charm is a physical thing rather than an abstract magical technique – and they expand upon these motifs in a fairly literal way. An elder Alchemical’s Charms are typically inspired by heavy machinery which is too large – physically or in concept – to make sense for their smaller counterparts.

Mechanically they likewise expand upon the standard expectations to suit their size, featuring longer ranges and larger areas of effect, but also expanding upon the Alchemicals’ roll as integral members of society and paragons of industry. A Colossus’s panoply is capable of empowering entire armies, protecting them from harm, equipping them for battle, or burning them to ash and flickering motes with little enough effort to impress even Solar generals.
Combat

Mass Combat

Survival
Size Versus Speed wrote:
It’s tempting to think of a being the size of a Colossus as automatically slow and cumbersome, but nothing could be further from the truth. Even more so than their junior counterparts, Colossi are capable of blinding speed. The distributed processors in their wired reflexes react to commands seemingly before they’re given, and their mechanical actuators deliver power with responsiveness physically impossible for organic muscles. Colossi are capable of exquisite precision and even grace (though many find the gradual acceleration in and out of organic movements inefficient).
Speed and Mobility

Social

Stealth and Disguise

Analytic and Cognitive

Spiritual
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ChainsawXIV
Monday, August 13, 2012 4:42:10 AM(UTC)
#3

Updated Alchemical Charms (Continued)

Compass: Autochthonia

New Alchemical Charms
While many Alchemical Charms grow with the Exalted who use them, the heart of the transformation from Champion to Colossus lies not in expanding upon what an Alchemical can already do, but in the entirely new capabilities enabled by his new-found size and power.

General
Keyword: Transfiguration wrote:
Charms with the Transfiguration keyword fundamentally change a Colossus’s body structure, far more so than any combination of transhuman implants ever could. The Charm itself is literally a new body which the Colossus’s core can be transferred into, and as such only one Transfiguration Charm may be installed by an Alchemical at a time.

In practical terms, a Colossus should always have a Transfiguration Charm installed unless he is in the vats or in some comparable circumstances where he can do without – or has been deprived of – access to a body. Without one the Alchemical is reduced to a capsule-like core of machinery, unable to move, install Charms, and sense or interact with his environment, though he may still employ Protocols if he is able.

Beyond these basic considerations, the transformation into a hulking construct has a variety of mechanical effects on a character. Sheer size makes it difficult to hide, and to use equipment sized for humans, inflicting a -4 external penalty on such activities without the use of a charm or magical effect to resolve the issue. Worn equipment cannot be used at all unless it is designed for a being of the Colossus’s approximate size and shape.

Such a form is also notably inhuman, making it more difficult to interact with others on a social basis, which reduces the character’s effective appearance by half for purposes of determining appearance modifiers in social combat. More insidiously, this also devalues human interaction, inflicting a -2 external penalty on Compassion rolls to reduce temporary Clarity.

It is not without its benefits however. Characters using a Transfiguration charm are able to freely use weapons sized for warstriders (Wonders of the Lost Age, Page 150) without penalty, and in mass combat they can elect to act as special characters or as mass combat units unto themselves, whichever they see fit.
Transfiguration
Look Ma! No Hands! wrote:
All of the more radically inhuman Transfiguration charms deprive a Colossus of his hands and arms, with obvious consequences for the character’s ability to wield weapons and use hand-held tools. There are several options available for such Exalts to rearm themselves:

The Cannonade Turret Assembly and Weapon Turret Systems submodules both allow an Alchemical to wield weapons without hands, and Paramagnetic Tether Beam can also be employed to wield weapons or use tools. Characters could also use Manifold Transhuman Implants to acquire the Multiple Limbs mutation in the form of mechanical grappler arms or similar appendages – extra arms are extra, after all, even if you start with none.
Combat
Man Battle Stations! wrote:
In the field, a Colossus is not dependent upon the support of others, but this is not to say he cannot benefit from their presence. A skilled crew can be invaluable to an Alchemical who’s Transfiguration provides him with the capacity to use them.

Characters working as members of an Alchemical’s crew always provide a limited teamwork bonus (Exalted, Page 125) to his actions if it is remotely plausible that they could do so. This can apply even in combat, where an Exalt’s gun crews might provide this bonus on attacks (commonly offsetting multiple-action penalties for firing multiple weapons), or a bridge crew might assist in processing sensor and communications data.

When deemed appropriate, a Colossus can also release control of some of its systems – typically things like weapon mounts, but potentially others at the storyteller’s discretion – to the control of heroic crewmembers. In such a case, the system in question is operated by the specified character, but the Alchemical may choose to supplement that character’s actions with his own charms, subject to normal rules for charm use.
Stealth and Disguise
Charm Concept: Nullspace wrote:
Just as Time Not is the time without time, the realm called Nullspace is the space without space. When the Great Maker constructed his bridge to nowhere, it was to Nullspace that its span stretched, and its creation formally recognized the shinma Nirupadhika which defines space and location by its absence, separating every spot from every other. Nullspace has no location, and is therefore coterminous with all locations, and while it is conceptually impossible for a thing to be in Nullspace, every moving object passes continually through it, during the nonexistent moments when it is neither here nor there.

Though most do not appreciate the fact, the nature of Nullspace is key to many magical effects, for it is by alteration of its narrative of motion that magic manipulates space and distance, and by way of mote-constructs called Nullspace Bridges that objects pass to and from Elsewhere. Most such conditions are purely momentary in nature, but those whose clarity approaches the Great Maker’s own begin to understand that while Nullspace is without space it is not without time, and that these common effects barely scratch the surface of what can be achieved by its manipulation.

While being within Nullspace is beyond the ability of localized intellects to conceive, it is never the less entirely possible in practical fact. An object or entity which sits ‘in’ Nullspace is both infinitely far from and physically present at every point in the universe, but remains utterly incapable of movement, for in the realm it inhabits there is no such thing. Such a creature is nowhere, and only an impetus from somewhere can dislodge him, but such impossible logic is well within the realm of Exalted magic, as it was for the magic of the Primordials before them.

Nullspace is fundamentally the same realm as the conceptual domain known as Fucking Nowhere, but it takes itself considerably more seriously lest alpacas ensue.
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ChainsawXIV
Monday, August 13, 2012 4:43:08 AM(UTC)
#4

New Alchemical Charms (Continued)

Labor and Utility
Cubage wrote:
Most Colossus charms measure the internal space they provide for their user in cubic yards (or cubage, for short), and some of them provide a very great deal of space for the Alchemical to work with. For reference, it may be useful to have a frame of reference for the volume of space consumed by various common real-world applications:

Volume - Application
12 - The interior space of a typical car
45 - The volume of a comfortable dorm or hotel room
120 - The volume of a standard shipping cargo container
250 - The total volume of a one bedroom apartment
800 - The total volume of a typical single family home
3,250 - Volume of an Olympic sized swimming pool
5,000 - Average volume of an office building
35,000 - Approximate total volume of a modern navy cruiser
125,000 - Approximate total volume of a WWII battle ship
720,000 - Total cargo capacity of a modern container ship
Spiritual
Keyword: Colossus (Revised) wrote:
Relevant to non-Alchemical characters who can acquire Alchemical charms, as well as for use with submodules such as Combat Drone Deployment and charms such as Remote Drone-Body Guidance, the Colossus keyword denotes a Charm whose physical size is a significant component of its functionality. More than simply size however, such Charms require the specific infrastructure of an alchemically transfigured body to support them, and as such may only be installed by a character that has an installed Transfiguration Charm.

All submodules for Colossus charms, as well as all submodules with a listed Essence requirement of 6 or 7, also implicitly bear this keyword. If a non-Colossus charm with a such a submodule is installed by a character without a Transfiguration Charm, the submodule’s benefits are not available, but the charm and its other submodules function normally.
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Intrepid Vector
Monday, August 13, 2012 4:43:30 AM(UTC)
#5

I am slightly in love with you for letting Colossi disguise themselves as buildings. That alone is perfect.

Edit: I really like Intra-Spatial Interface Engine and everything that branches from it.
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glamourweaver
Monday, August 13, 2012 4:53:54 AM(UTC)
#6

I haven't had a chance to sit and read these yet, but I am really excited to!
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ChainsawXIV on 8/13/2012(UTC)
rahsith
Monday, August 13, 2012 6:07:20 AM(UTC)
#7
Freakin awesome. You made my day man. Great stuff
WWW
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ChainsawXIV on 8/13/2012(UTC)
Long Time Lurker
Monday, August 13, 2012 10:12:29 AM(UTC)
#8
The Social submodules section has been folded into the Speed & Mobility submodule section, which I presume was not intentional.

As written, Eclipse-a-likes could install a lot of these Charms and submodules into their human-sized bodies at Essence 6-7. I suggest you explicitly limit them to Colossus-sized bodies through game mechanics - maybe by the inclusion of a "Colossus" keyword? And/or sprinkle the Native keyword.

That being said, this is good. Really, really, really good. emotion-21.gif
... Now how about some Municipal Charms? emotion-2.gif
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ChainsawXIV on 8/13/2012(UTC)
CycloneJoker
Monday, August 13, 2012 12:41:57 PM(UTC)
#9

Combinatorial Synergy Network is pure win.

DAIKAI-SHINKENOH, UNITED UNDER PROVIDENCE! emotion-14.gif
~~Futari no Body & Soul~~

"Won't you believe in him? Even if there is no God, or Buddha...there is still Kamen Rider." —Taki Kazuya, Kamen Rider SPIRITS
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ChainsawXIV on 8/13/2012(UTC)
Lysdexic
Monday, August 13, 2012 12:52:11 PM(UTC)
#10

Intrepid Vector wrote:
I am slightly in love with you for letting Colossi disguise themselves as buildings. That alone is perfect.

Edit: I really like Intra-Spatial Interface Engine and everything that branches from it.


Don't forget the reference to the best thing Exalted, no anyone, has produced...Alpacas out of Fucking Nowhere.
He kiwd meh nayfun. I'm fookin ded.
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ChainsawXIV
Monday, August 13, 2012 1:16:03 PM(UTC)
#11

Long Time Lurker wrote:
The Social submodules section has been folded into the Speed & Mobility submodule section, which I presume was not intentional.

As written, Eclipse-a-likes could install a lot of these Charms and submodules into their human-sized bodies at Essence 6-7. I suggest you explicitly limit them to Colossus-sized bodies through game mechanics - maybe by the inclusion of a "Colossus" keyword? And/or sprinkle the Native keyword.

That being said, this is good. Really, really, really good. emotion-21.gif
... Now how about some Municipal Charms? emotion-2.gif


Thanks for the suggestion. I definitely want them to be able to use these things, which is why I didn't plaster the whole thing with Native - the image of an Eclypse in a jar at the center of a vast mechanical body has a certain capsuleer-esque quality that could be interesting. The submodules that operate on a Colossus's passenger space sort themselves out, but I do need to work out a 'size matters' keyword or something like that. The trick I think is that submodules don't have their own keywords, but I'll figure something out and put it in when I do my next editing pass.
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Satchel on 8/13/2012(UTC)
Intrepid Vector
Monday, August 13, 2012 4:08:53 PM(UTC)
#12

I humbly request Muncipal-scale Husk-Sculpting Apparatus and Optical Shroud. I really, really want a city that can reconfigure its street design on a whim or cloak it's entire populace.
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ChainsawXIV on 8/13/2012(UTC)
ChainsawXIV
Monday, August 13, 2012 4:46:35 PM(UTC)
#13

Intrepid Vector wrote:
I humbly request Muncipal-scale Husk-Sculpting Apparatus and Optical Shroud. I really, really want a city that can reconfigure its street design on a whim or cloak it's entire populace.


I may end up thinking more about Municipal charms at some point (after the Colossus stuff is well refined), but thus far my general philosophy on them is that they're better off being fairly abstract, as opposed to mechanically detailed, at least for the most part. Municipal charms, in my mind, fall firmly in the realm of plot devices and architecture which should probably do whatever the story demands they do. That was the treatment they got in Compass: Autochthonia, and I liked it.

That being said, a ton of the material here is inspired by the Municipal charms mentioned in Compass, with the notion that a lot of the charms and submodules you see here evolve into the Municipal versions. Yet more of them should clearly point towards their own, new, municipal versions.

I could easily see an adamant metropolis conceived along the concept of a mythical invisible or lost city, using Optical Shroud to hide itself away or Nullspace Displacer Unit to remove itself from existence entirely for years on end. Similarly, an Escher-esque moonsilver city constantly reconfiguring itself with Husk Sculpting Apparatus and the Puzzle Manse feature of Rubicon Hazard Simulator, either for self defense or in a constant effort to optimize its internal space around its citizens, could be very cool. Both of these concepts are neat, but only if they're what you're game needs, which to my mind reinforces a more narrative approach to Municipal charms.
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Hark
Monday, August 13, 2012 5:07:40 PM(UTC)
#14

It all look very nice, but it does look like balance could become a serious issue. Most of the charms look perfectly fine to me, but the vast number of -0 health levels Colossi get concerns me. Particularly when taken with the Transfigurative Restoration System sub-module. Keep switching forms and you are damn near invincible. Certainly it allows an Alchemical to continually transform to cover most weaker attacks, and just perfect away the rare few attacks that actually pose a serious threat.

Edit: Also this need playtesting. Quick someone run an Elders game mostly with Alchemical character. Some non-Alchemicals would probably be a good idea just to get some side by side comparison of how they stack up.
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ChainsawXIV on 8/13/2012(UTC)
ChainsawXIV
Monday, August 13, 2012 5:30:07 PM(UTC)
#15

Hark wrote:
It all look very nice, but it does look like balance could become a serious issue. Most of the charms look perfectly fine to me, but the vast number of -0 health levels Colossi get concerns me. Particularly when taken with the Transfigurative Restoration System sub-module. Keep switching forms and you are damn near invincible. Certainly it allows an Alchemical to continually transform to cover most weaker attacks, and just perfect away the rare few attacks that actually pose a serious threat.


Good point. When I originally wrote Transfigurative Restoration System I wasn't planning on giving nearly so many extra health levels out. What would you think of adjusting TRS so that it allows the Alchemical to pay extra - say, 1m per -0 level - to heal when he transforms? That should keep things in check.

Hark wrote:
Edit: Also this need playtesting. Quick someone run an Elders game mostly with Alchemical character. Some non-Alchemicals would probably be a good idea just to get some side by side comparison of how they stack up.


Couldn't agree more. Maybe something in a Gunstar shard, to exercise the full range of options in a setting where Elder Exalted aren't such a rare thing. I'd be happy to help out (and play) if anyone actually wants to try this out, but the three other Exalted games I'm in don't leave me enough time at the moment to solo-ST another.
Lafing Cat
Monday, August 13, 2012 5:33:49 PM(UTC)
#16

Hark wrote:
Edit: Also this need playtesting. Quick someone run an Elders game mostly with Alchemical character. Some non-Alchemicals would probably be a good idea just to get some side by side comparison of how they stack up.


Yes, someone do this and allow me to play in it >_>
Resident Forum Prism Cat

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ChainsawXIV on 8/13/2012(UTC)
Raging Storm of Unfathomable Anguish
Monday, August 13, 2012 7:10:01 PM(UTC)
#17

----Get that Litch some Zombies; Litches love Zombies!
Kyeudo wrote:
In Exalted, Awesome trumps Physics. Or Anatomy, as the case may be.
Raging Storm of Unfathomable Anguish
Monday, August 13, 2012 7:12:21 PM(UTC)
#18

also if needs play-testers, i want in. VERY BADLY!
----Get that Litch some Zombies; Litches love Zombies!
Kyeudo wrote:
In Exalted, Awesome trumps Physics. Or Anatomy, as the case may be.
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ChainsawXIV on 8/13/2012(UTC)
ChainsawXIV
Monday, August 13, 2012 7:17:29 PM(UTC)
#19

Raging Storm of Unfathomable Anguish wrote:
also if needs play-testers, i want in. VERY BADLY!


Well, if the excessively large image macros are on my side, I must be doing something right. emotion-1.gif
WarDragon
Monday, August 13, 2012 7:33:35 PM(UTC)
#20

These look really good, barring the caveats that others have mentioned. How would you model a Colossus that doesn't quite fit into any of the shapes above, like a Tyrant Lizard or a centaur? Mutations? If the Alchemical is using Multipedal or Humaniform Chassis, and Integrated Artifact Transmogrifier or Husk-Sculpting Apparatus, could he appear as a giant human or animal instead of a warstrider/robot animal?

Did you have any ideas for Voidtech?
Sometimes it helps to ask yourself, "What Would The Ebon Dragon Do?" and then do the opposite of that.
-Luna (speaking through Wise Old Guru)
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glamourweaver
Monday, August 13, 2012 8:03:09 PM(UTC)
#21

My challenge to you Chainsaw, well before Municipal Charms: Colossus VOID Subroutines!
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Fitter Happier
Monday, August 13, 2012 8:16:18 PM(UTC)
#22

Fuck yes!
Holden wrote:
As a general rule, Fitter is correct.


"The whispers of the Wyld say, 'This is the story that articulates the mystery of conflict.' Then they explode!" Legend of the Shinma.

I WILL MAKE OF THIS WORLD A TORTURE CHAMBER: Rewritten Resonance.
WWW
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Sandact6
Monday, August 13, 2012 8:34:57 PM(UTC)
#23

I love the work you've done, and happy that someone took the work to do this. I don't mean to shit on everyone's parade, but there are some things I need to ask.

- The numbers seem really high. Pardon me for asking this, but did you test these numbers? Humiform gets no defense boost, and when you can do something like 52 damage. Which hurts without charms. Getting the Ess 7 upgrade does something like 92 damage. Only the latter ones give defense boosts, which seem equally insane at nearly 100 or so soak. That said the imagery on each of these are simply amazing. If you can revamp the numbers then this'd be perfect.
- Transhuman Attribute Scaffold is broken. It doesn't matter if it costs three motes. Burn it.
- I'd probably place the following at Essence 5:
- Siege-Ram Engine (If it only works on inanimate, then it's fine at ESS 5)
- Capacitance Array (I found onslaught Dynamo to be a little weak myself. Hell, I'd put this at ESS 4 even)
- Singularity Pulse Driver (First purchase can be essence 5 easily)
- Protosynthetic Ammunition Replicator submodules (These should be essence 4, or probably available at essence 4 at cost some motes to make ammo for a scene or something)

Otherwise I really enjoy the rest of this project. Nice work.
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ChainsawXIV on 8/13/2012(UTC)
glamourweaver
Monday, August 13, 2012 8:46:50 PM(UTC)
#24

Sandact6 wrote:

- Transhuman Attribute Scaffold is broken. It doesn't matter if it costs three motes. Burn it.


It's really not. Colossi & Muncipal Alchemicals SHOULD have exponentially higher attributes (at least physically) to reflect their scale and its necessities - beyond what higher essence allows. The form Chainsaw found facilitates this WITHOUT giving them a leg up on their Charm prerequisites, and even cancels out further dice-adding.

AT MOST, he might want to increase the mote commitment.
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Hark
Monday, August 13, 2012 8:58:35 PM(UTC)
#25

Transhuman Attribute Scaffold should probably be balanced against Infinite (Ability) Mastery.

Make it cost the number of dice gained motes to install and it basically becomes a permanent Infinite (Ability) Mastery with the added bonus of not needing other Excellencies to make use of it.

Edit: Also if all Colossus only charms had a pre-req of "any Transfiguration charm" you would solve some of the potential problems that they might cause, and create the weird situations with an Eclipse suspended inside a great machine to power his Colossus charms.
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Kukla
Monday, August 13, 2012 9:01:57 PM(UTC)
#26

Hark wrote:
Transhuman Attribute Scaffold should probably be balanced against Infinite (Ability) Mastery.

Make it cost the number of dice gained motes to install and it basically becomes a permanent Infinite (Ability) Mastery with the added bonus of not needing other Excellencies to make use of it.
I actually really like this idea. It's expensive, but awesomely powerful.
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glamourweaver
Monday, August 13, 2012 9:01:59 PM(UTC)
#27

Hark wrote:
Transhuman Attribute Scaffold should probably be balanced against Infinite (Ability) Mastery.

Make it cost the number of dice gained motes to install and it basically becomes a permanent Infinite (Ability) Mastery with the added bonus of not needing other Excellencies to make use of it.


I have no problem with Colossi having better default dice-pools than equivalent essence Solars - that increased scale should count for something - so long of course as the Solar still is where he should be on the power tier relative to the Alchemical when the essence starts flying and full potential power is brought to bare.

No different than a high essence Lunar getting ridiculous attributes by assuming a titanic scale form.
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Hark
Monday, August 13, 2012 9:10:23 PM(UTC)
#28

glamourweaver wrote:
I have no problem with Colossi having better default dice-pools than equivalent essence Solars - that increased scale should count for something - so long of course as the Solar still is where he should be on the power tier relative to the Alchemical when the essence starts flying and full potential power is brought to bare.

No different than a high essence Lunar getting ridiculous attributes by assuming a titanic scale form.

I never said that Colossi shouldn't have higher dice pools, but it is pretty obvious that [3m] is not nearly high enough for the charm. The charm tech itself most closely resembles Infinite Ability Master, so that is the balancing point to work around. The obvious solution is then to match cost of IAM, but I'm willing to listen to debate saying it should cost less so long as IAM is the balancing point we are working around.
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glamourweaver
Monday, August 13, 2012 9:13:54 PM(UTC)
#29

Ah, I think I misremembered I[A]M's mechanics and misunderstood your point. My bad.
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ChainsawXIV on 8/13/2012(UTC)
ChainsawXIV
Monday, August 13, 2012 9:13:55 PM(UTC)
#30

WarDragon wrote:
These look really good, barring the caveats that others have mentioned. How would you model a Colossus that doesn't quite fit into any of the shapes above, like a Tyrant Lizard or a centaur? Mutations? If the Alchemical is using Multipedal or Humaniform Chassis, and Integrated Artifact Transmogrifier or Husk-Sculpting Apparatus, could he appear as a giant human or animal instead of a warstrider/robot animal?


The set of charms plus some Manifold Transhuman Implants should probably have you covered, or at least that's what I envisioned. In the case of something more radical though, there's always the option of creating a custom Transfiguration charm.

WarDragon wrote:
Did you have any ideas for Voidtech?

glamourweaver wrote:
My challenge to you Chainsaw, well before Municipal Charms: Colossus VOID Subroutines!


These are totally on the agenda. In fact, I almost threw some in, but then I decided to hold off until I got the kinks worked out of the standard version.

Sandact6 wrote:
I love the work you've done, and happy that someone took the work to do this. I don't mean to shit on everyone's parade, but there are some things I need to ask...


These numbers definitely need both testing and refinement. They were derived more by looking at comparably huge and powerful things in the game and trying to get the totals into those ranges than by application of good math. Along with a general editing pass, a more math-based numbers review is in the stars for my first round of revisions, but that being said, these guys are supposed to be huge, tough, and lethal, so expect them to end up with numbers that push the scale even after that.

glamourweaver wrote:
Sandact6 wrote:

- Transhuman Attribute Scaffold is broken. It doesn't matter if it costs three motes. Burn it.


It's really not. Colossi & Muncipal Alchemicals SHOULD have exponentially higher attributes (at least physically) to reflect their scale and its necessities - beyond what higher essence allows. The form Chainsaw found facilitates this WITHOUT giving them a leg up on their Charm prerequisites, and even cancels out further dice-adding.

AT MOST, he might want to increase the mote commitment.


Couldn't have said it better myself.

Hark wrote:
Transhuman Attribute Scaffold should probably be balanced against Infinite (Ability) Mastery.

Make it cost the number of dice gained motes to install and it basically becomes a permanent Infinite (Ability) Mastery with the added bonus of not needing other Excellencies to make use of it.

Edit: Also if all Colossus only charms had a pre-req of "any Transfiguration charm" you would solve some of the potential problems that they might cause, and create the weird situations with an Eclipse suspended inside a great machine to power his Colossus charms.


That would be a fine way to approach this, and I think I'll incorporate an element of that into the first round of revisions. Thanks!

Edit: I'm thinking a [3m] installation cost commitment, but make the charm a motes per die Indefinite, possibly with a dramatic action activation time. Notion being that you're meant to basically keep it on all the time, without crippling the rest of your charm selection by forcing you to commit the entire cost out of Personal.
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glamourweaver on 8/13/2012(UTC), Kukla on 8/13/2012(UTC)
Day_Dreamer
Monday, August 13, 2012 9:19:08 PM(UTC)
#31

Hark wrote:
glamourweaver wrote:
I have no problem with Colossi having better default dice-pools than equivalent essence Solars - that increased scale should count for something - so long of course as the Solar still is where he should be on the power tier relative to the Alchemical when the essence starts flying and full potential power is brought to bare.

No different than a high essence Lunar getting ridiculous attributes by assuming a titanic scale form.

I never said that Colossi shouldn't have higher dice pools, but it is pretty obvious that [3m] is not nearly high enough for the charm. The charm tech itself most closely resembles Infinite Ability Master, so that is the balancing point to work around. The obvious solution is then to match cost of IAM, but I'm willing to listen to debate saying it should cost less so long as IAM is the balancing point we are working around.

Simple. The cost of installation needs to be paid entirely from Personal pool. If it costs the same as IAM, you'll be unable to install anything else. That's totally a strawman argument though, so more seriously.

Let's say it's instead paid from your personal pool... the 5th excellency does this already, functionally, without needing to commit the motes when you aren't doing it. At E5 it even lets you activate at the same speed as IAM. In short, this charm is only useful if you're really, really sure that you're going to be using it in every encounter, or you've massively screwed yourself for any other encounter.

Instead, having a very high personal commit (3-4 motes) means that you're taking this instead of three other charms, probably. There are big reasons not to get 9 of these and wear them at all times. Additionally, remember that Alchemical dice pools cap out much lower than Solar ones; at E6 you have a maximum of 9 both dice, if you've bought every possible 4th excellency, as opposed to the 12 that Solars can get without their voodoo magic-that-isn't-magic bonuses.
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ChainsawXIV on 8/13/2012(UTC), Satchel on 8/14/2012(UTC)
Hark
Monday, August 13, 2012 9:22:06 PM(UTC)
#32

Well since the original intent of Colossi in the books seemed to be to make them comparable to Exalts in Warstriders you might consider either using Warstriders as a strong balancing point for your math, or rework the Warstrider rules to more closely resemble your Colossi.

Also if anybody does run a playtest, I want to play a Starmetal Information Warfare Center.
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ChainsawXIV on 8/13/2012(UTC), Satchel on 8/14/2012(UTC)
ChainsawXIV
Monday, August 13, 2012 9:27:17 PM(UTC)
#33

Hark wrote:
Well since the original intent of Colossi in the books seemed to be to make them comparable to Exalts in Warstriders you might consider either using Warstriders as a strong balancing point for your math, or rework the Warstrider rules to more closely resemble your Colossi.

Also if anybody does run a playtest, I want to play a Starmetal Information Warfare Center.

Yup. That's basically the plan. I'm trying like hell to avoid rewriting warstriders from the ground up for a whole variety of reasons, so these guys will end up tuning in that direction.

My general feeling is that Essence 6 should find a Colossus on par with an exalt piloting a high end warstrider, and that Essence 7 should find him on par with an exalt piloting doomsday machines like the Five Metal Shrike or a Thousand Forged Dragon. Because, you know, escalation. Rawr. emotion-1.gif
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Hark on 8/13/2012(UTC), Satchel on 8/14/2012(UTC)
Hark
Monday, August 13, 2012 9:31:27 PM(UTC)
#34

Essence 9 Metropolis feel like a Directional Titan?
Essence 10 the Daystar?
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ChainsawXIV on 8/13/2012(UTC), Satchel on 8/14/2012(UTC)
glamourweaver
Monday, August 13, 2012 9:32:59 PM(UTC)
#35

Hark wrote:
Essence 9 Metropolis feel like a Directional Titan?


Wasn't the Shriek supposed to be the equivalent to a Directional Titan, but geared toward speed and mobility?
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ChainsawXIV on 8/13/2012(UTC), Satchel on 8/14/2012(UTC)
ChainsawXIV
Monday, August 13, 2012 9:33:57 PM(UTC)
#36

Hark wrote:
Essence 9 Metropolis feel like a Directional Titan?
Essence 10 the Daystar?

Now we're talking!
Kukla
Monday, August 13, 2012 9:34:17 PM(UTC)
#37

Hark wrote:
Essence 9 Metropolis feel like a Directional Titan?
Essence 10 the Daystar?
That's probably a bit much. There are lots of E9/E10 cities out there, they aren't all nuclear fuckmonsters.
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ChainsawXIV on 8/13/2012(UTC), zenfiero on 8/19/2012(UTC)
Hark
Monday, August 13, 2012 9:47:30 PM(UTC)
#38

Kukla wrote:
Hark wrote:
Essence 9 Metropolis feel like a Directional Titan?
Essence 10 the Daystar?
That's probably a bit much. There are lots of E9/E10 cities out there, they aren't all nuclear fuckmonsters.

How many are gear entirely toward blowing shit up? They are stationary and their primary role in Society is to sustain a population. The result would be that almost all have their charms scattered around in general utility and creature comforts rather than nuclear armaggedon.
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Volthawk
Monday, August 13, 2012 10:11:23 PM(UTC)
#39
Hmm, reading through these charms got me thinking on how a Seal-breaching scenario would play out with Colossi using these Charms. Got pretty cool mental images, like a kind of tank-like Colossi in Pure Chaos, using their charms to refine Wyld Essence into materials that internal processing plants build items and artefacts for the Autochtonian's use, while using the rest of its might to deal with the strange beings that dwell in the chaos who may threaten Creation and in turn see the Colossi as a foreign threat, imnical to their nature.
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ChainsawXIV on 8/13/2012(UTC)
ChainsawXIV
Monday, August 13, 2012 11:36:15 PM(UTC)
#40

Kukla wrote:
Hark wrote:
Essence 9 Metropolis feel like a Directional Titan?
Essence 10 the Daystar?
That's probably a bit much. There are lots of E9/E10 cities out there, they aren't all nuclear fuckmonsters.


I'm not sure they're as common as we might expect from their potential age. Considering the number of canonical elders whose Essence is lower than their age allows, there are clearly some reasons not to increase it when you can - not least the increasingly vast experience cost - but for Alchemicals I suspect that it goes even beyond that.

Upgrading a Metropolis's Essence surely represents a massive investment of resources on the part of his population. If building an Alchemical in the first place has a Wealth •••• price tag, then it seems not at all unreasonable that upgrading the Essence of a Metropolis would cost Wealth •••••, an expense which, paid just once much less for many cities, would endanger the economy of any nation.

Given that, it seems likely to me that most Colossi remain so for centuries or even millenia and ascend to Metropolis status only when a suitable community presents itself, and that the vast majority of cities remain at Essence 8 for similarly long periods. Only the largest and most noteworthy amongst them will have the population to warrant upgrading further and the personal economy to fund the project, especially in the standard population and resource starved Autochthonia.

Also, what Hark said. emotion-1.gif
Sandact6
Monday, August 13, 2012 11:36:44 PM(UTC)
#41

glamourweaver wrote:
Sandact6 wrote:

- Transhuman Attribute Scaffold is broken. It doesn't matter if it costs three motes. Burn it.


It's really not. Colossi & Muncipal Alchemicals SHOULD have exponentially higher attributes (at least physically) to reflect their scale and its necessities - beyond what higher essence allows. The form Chainsaw found facilitates this WITHOUT giving them a leg up on their Charm prerequisites, and even cancels out further dice-adding.

AT MOST, he might want to increase the mote commitment.


No other splat has the ability to permanently turn on their IAM 24/7, and Alchemicals are supposed to be a step below Lunars. If the other splats can get something like this, fine. If not then it should be burned with fire otherwise Alchemicals pull too far ahead, even with charm commitment cost.
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ChainsawXIV on 8/13/2012(UTC)
glamourweaver
Monday, August 13, 2012 11:47:41 PM(UTC)
#42

Sandact6 wrote:

No other splat has the ability to permanently turn on their IAM 24/7, and Alchemicals are supposed to be a step below Lunars. If the other splats can get something like this, fine. If not then it should be burned with fire otherwise Alchemicals pull too far ahead, even with charm commitment cost.


No other splat grows in physical scale to the size of cities with their essence growth. You can not weigh charms individually to figure out the relative balance of the splat.

Also note that Alchemicals ALREADY have Attribute modifiers better than their closest Lunar equivalents. This is possible without changing overall balance because of the limitations their charms inherently carry.

I mean seriously, how much weight do you think those extra Attribute dice carry relative to overall power of other high essence Celestial Exalted?
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ChainsawXIV
Monday, August 13, 2012 11:49:18 PM(UTC)
#43

Sandact6 wrote:
No other splat has the ability to permanently turn on their IAM 24/7, and Alchemicals are supposed to be a step below Lunars. If the other splats can get something like this, fine. If not then it should be burned with fire otherwise Alchemicals pull too far ahead, even with charm commitment cost.


I disagree. Getting ahead in Exalted - at least on the numbers level - is about bigger dice pools, because he with the bigger dice pool wins more often. It doesn't matter if I can be strong all day every day if you can kick my ass in the one scene where we actually meet.

The only practical benefit of having it on all the time is the one action you save powering up at the start of combat, and Alchemicals have enough limitations on their tactical flexibility thanks to installation costs that I think things shake out just fine.

Edit: Let me also add that standard Alchemicals are in some cases quite capable of outperforming Solars even in terms of dice pools, and doing so with greater efficiency. The catch is that in order to do this they must hyper specialize, at great cost to their flexibility.

My observation, having played with them a bunch at this point, is that Alchemicals are weaker than other celestial exalted not because they have lower dice pools or less staying power, but because it is far far easier to catch them in a situation where they don't have the tools to address the needs of the scene. Installation costs are the reason this is true, and thus the most essential balancing mechanic for Alchemicals in general.
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Day_Dreamer
Monday, August 13, 2012 11:54:03 PM(UTC)
#44

Sandact6 wrote:

No other splat has the ability to permanently turn on their IAM 24/7, and Alchemicals are supposed to be a step below Lunars. If the other splats can get something like this, fine. If not then it should be burned with fire otherwise Alchemicals pull too far ahead, even with charm commitment cost.


I'm about to strawman, but I think this is still a legitimate point, so please don't disregard it. This is not an attack on you, but I think you're aren't getting the tradeoffs involved here.

No other splat can permanently increase attributes with charms. This is overpowered. Similarly, no other splat can permanently maximize abilities for a given attribute-ability combination. Again, overpowered.

Alchemicals are different than other splats. If you say that any given alch charm needs to have an equivalent for at least one other celestial splat, you'll run into difficulties. Commit costs are really, really annoying, and because they need to be payed from Personal essence, you'll have a very, very hard cap on how many charms you can have at once by E7, compared to every other splat.
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ChainsawXIV on 8/13/2012(UTC)
Sandact6
Monday, August 13, 2012 11:57:31 PM(UTC)
#45

ChainsawXIV wrote:
Sandact6 wrote:
No other splat has the ability to permanently turn on their IAM 24/7, and Alchemicals are supposed to be a step below Lunars. If the other splats can get something like this, fine. If not then it should be burned with fire otherwise Alchemicals pull too far ahead, even with charm commitment cost.


I disagree. Getting ahead in Exalted - at least on the numbers level - is about bigger dice pools, because he with the bigger dice pool wins more often. It doesn't matter if I can be strong all day every day if you can kick my ass in the one scene where we actually meet.

The only practical benefit of having it on all the time is the one action you save powering up at the start of combat, and Alchemicals have enough limitations on their tactical flexibility thanks to installation costs that I think things shake out just fine.



No it is not. It's an elder problem par excellence. They can attack you, run away, then come back again until you're out of motes. You got yours up all the time, so you don't need to worry about getting your motes back. Unless you're Infernal you're not getting those motes back. This is a major advantage. It's what the Wyld tells you do against Anathema, because a Solar or Lunar may have an IAM, and when they do that makes them incredibly deadly to the point where fighting them in one blow will probably cost way more resources than needed.

It's not the one action that's valuable. It's the overall tactical picture of hit and turn tactics.
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ChainsawXIV on 8/14/2012(UTC)
Sandact6
Tuesday, August 14, 2012 12:03:15 AM(UTC)
#46

glamourweaver wrote:
Sandact6 wrote:

No other splat has the ability to permanently turn on their IAM 24/7, and Alchemicals are supposed to be a step below Lunars. If the other splats can get something like this, fine. If not then it should be burned with fire otherwise Alchemicals pull too far ahead, even with charm commitment cost.


No other splat grows in physical scale to the size of cities with their essence growth. You can not weigh charms individually to figure out the relative balance of the splat.

Also note that Alchemicals ALREADY have Attribute modifiers better than their closest Lunar equivalents. This is possible without changing overall balance because of the limitations their charms inherently carry.

I mean seriously, how much weight do you think those extra Attribute dice carry relative to overall power of other high essence Celestial Exalted?


Alchemical cities do not have stat writeups, they are a red herring to this argument.

The reason why Alchemicals have better attribute modifiers is because we had a better writing team. The Lunar set is terrible. It's playable, but it's terrible.

And how much power do I think they carry? At least for combat, considering Dexterity covers Archery/Firearms/Thrown/Melee/MA/Dodge/Athletics/speed? Having that up all the time? When Solars can only have one ability up for only one scene? And Alchemicals get boosted dexterity all the time for basically 4m? Yes it is horribly imbalanced when compared to other Exalted.
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ChainsawXIV on 8/14/2012(UTC)
ChainsawXIV
Tuesday, August 14, 2012 12:28:42 AM(UTC)
#47

Sandact6 wrote:
No it is not. It's an elder problem par excellence. They can attack you, run away, then come back again until you're out of motes. You got yours up all the time, so you don't need to worry about getting your motes back. Unless you're Infernal you're not getting those motes back. This is a major advantage. It's what the Wyld tells you do against Anathema, because a Solar or Lunar may have an IAM, and when they do that makes them incredibly deadly to the point where fighting them in one blow will probably cost way more resources than needed.

It's not the one action that's valuable. It's the overall tactical picture of hit and turn tactics.


If I understand you correctly, you're suggesting that the Colossus somehow escapes from combat with the elder Exalt(s) he is facing, only to attack again after waiting long enough for his opponent's scene long charms to expire, but not long enough for the hearthstones his opponent assuredly has to refresh his essence pool. Assuming I'm not misunderstanding, then here are my concerns with your argument:

(1) That scenario presumes that the Alchemical has somehow achieved complete tactical control, and is able to end and begin combat scenes whenever he wants, a condition which is very unlikely to actually pertain.

(2) That tactic is based purely on meta-gaming which is far outside the spirit of the game. This isn't Warhammer 40,000 or Magic the Gathering. The goal of the game is not to rules lawyer for the win.

Will the same tactics that are most effective against Solars be most effective against a Colossus? No. And I really don't think they should be. Like all Alchemicals, the best tactic to employ against a Colossus is to figure out what he's not ready for (and he's pretty sure to be unready for something), and hit him with that.
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glamourweaver
Tuesday, August 14, 2012 12:30:12 AM(UTC)
#48

Lunars got their errataed DotFa charms from the same writers AFTER alchemicals. It was explained at the time that they still didn't have as powerful attribute adders as alchemicals because of the drawbacks of alchemical charm instillation.

And colossi are part of the same spectrum as growing into cities. Alchemicals need the strength and stamina to reflect that scale, and obviously the other attributes go with that.

The fact that dex is overpowered is a separarte and universal problem.

Having excellencies don't LIMIT anyone else, but every slot a lunar fills is a charm they didn't take and with the mote investment of their more powerful charms, they are limited to relying solely on a few set ones, while high essence celestials knock their huge die pools aside with diverze perfects and unleash diverse awe inspiring powers.
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Sandact6
Tuesday, August 14, 2012 1:38:35 AM(UTC)
#49

ChainsawXIV wrote:
Sandact6 wrote:
No it is not. It's an elder problem par excellence. They can attack you, run away, then come back again until you're out of motes. You got yours up all the time, so you don't need to worry about getting your motes back. Unless you're Infernal you're not getting those motes back. This is a major advantage. It's what the Wyld tells you do against Anathema, because a Solar or Lunar may have an IAM, and when they do that makes them incredibly deadly to the point where fighting them in one blow will probably cost way more resources than needed.

It's not the one action that's valuable. It's the overall tactical picture of hit and turn tactics.


If I understand you correctly, you're suggesting that the Colossus somehow escapes from combat with the elder Exalt(s) he is facing, only to attack again after waiting long enough for his opponent's scene long charms to expire, but not long enough for the hearthstones his opponent assuredly has to refresh his essence pool. Assuming I'm not misunderstanding, then here are my concerns with your argument:

(1) That scenario presumes that the Alchemical has somehow achieved complete tactical control, and is able to end and begin combat scenes whenever he wants, a condition which is very unlikely to actually pertain.

(2) That tactic is based purely on meta-gaming which is far outside the spirit of the game. This isn't Warhammer 40,000 or Magic the Gathering. The goal of the game is not to rules lawyer for the win.

Will the same tactics that are most effective against Solars be most effective against a Colossus? No. And I really don't think they should be. Like all Alchemicals, the best tactic to employ against a Colossus is to figure out what he's not ready for (and he's pretty sure to be unready for something), and hit him with that.


(1) If my opponent has IAM up all the time, then getting into the mess will happen fairly easily.

(2) It's actually encouraged for Dragonblooded to rapidly attack an Anathema in a series of attacks rather than one push, so the Anathema cannot regain resources. It's not meta-gaming, it's called intelligent warfare. It's a tactic used in real life as well. I hardly consider it rules lawyering.

The thing is that yes you're generally encouraged to try and hit an Alchemical outside his speciality loadout, but it should not be impossible. What this charm does it make it impossible to ever fight an Alchemical knitted for specialty, period. It makes killing an ESS 6-7 alchemical FAR harder than killing nearly any other Exalt save the Empress herself.

glamourweaver wrote:
Lunars got their errataed DotFa charms from the same writers AFTER alchemicals. It was explained at the time that they still didn't have as powerful attribute adders as alchemicals because of the drawbacks of alchemical charm instillation.

And colossi are part of the same spectrum as growing into cities. Alchemicals need the strength and stamina to reflect that scale, and obviously the other attributes go with that.

The fact that dex is overpowered is a separarte and universal problem.

Having excellencies don't LIMIT anyone else, but every slot a lunar fills is a charm they didn't take and with the mote investment of their more powerful charms, they are limited to relying solely on a few set ones, while high essence celestials knock their huge die pools aside with diverze perfects and unleash diverse awe inspiring powers.


A lot of Lunar DotFA charms didn't have the issues the solar ones did. Secondly a lot of them are horribly unpowered for something should have. Same issue with the current Lunar book. I'm fine with them not having attribute enhancers on all the time. Hell, I'm fine with even doing something like gutting DBT. You want an example of what a good Lunar excellency could be like? Check Earthscorpian's. Perfect example of what a Lunar's power should be like. If that was the case, then I wouldn't even blink at the Alchemical fourth augmentation or their IAM.

And you don't need massive pools to suggest power. Look at Emperor Ox Body. It gives +ESS to STR and Soak (And as a knack, doesn't count as charmcaps). If you want to let it give +STA dice to any stamina roll as well, then this is perfectly fine and in line with being large. Cities... I honestly don't care about as I'm talking about Colossi and not cities. Metropoli and that Alchemicals turn into them are irrelevant for this conversation.

As for the slot issue, I've ran an Alchemical game that went into 550-ish XP. By the time you get to that stage, your main power is flexibility. At equal XP an Alchemical can keep up with Celestials, but only in one respective field. An essence 5 Alchemical may not have everything an Essence 5 Solar may have, but can certainly come close and pull his own weight with them. And since the alchemical effects are general, you can often use them with nearly any combat ability you please.
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ChainsawXIV on 8/14/2012(UTC)
ChainsawXIV
Tuesday, August 14, 2012 1:51:02 AM(UTC)
#50

I don't want to drag this argument out too far, but a little further seems fine:

- I don't understand how an Alchemical will gain complete tactical control of the scenario due to his opponent using IAM all the time. Please explain how one follows the other.

- I'm not saying that hit and run tactics are out of character. I'm saying that the timing that makes this the One True Tactic is. It relies on mechanical abstractions like mote respiration happening on an hour long tick.

- Glamourweaver's comments don't mention Alchemical Metropoli at all. I'm not sure why you keep bringing that up in your responses to him.
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Day_Dreamer on 8/14/2012(UTC)
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