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3e Charm previews, day 2: Skillful Imposition Method
Holden
Wednesday, January 30, 2013 6:11:48 AM(UTC)

It's THAT TIME!

No, not Adventure Time.

...

Well okay, it can be Adventure Time too. BEHOLD THE ADVENTURES OF A SOLAR, ABYSSAL, AND LUNAR!



But no, rather, it's CHARM PREVIEW TIME!

Let the Charm preview commence:



Skillful Imposition Method

Cost: 6m; Mins: Socialize 3, Essence 2; Type: Supplemental
Keywords: None
Duration: Instant
Prerequisite Charms: Mastery of Small Manners

People are products of their environment. The Solar can bend an individual to his will by exploiting the mores, beliefs, and customs that color that person’s background. This Charm may supplement any social action that plays on a belief, law, custom, or social taboo held by a group to which the target belongs. The social action treats the individual as having a minor Intimacy dedicated to that social element, even if he doesn’t.

For example, a Solar attempts to convince a barbarian living in a cave high in the mountains to give him shelter from a coming storm. Knowing that the barbarian’s people have a strong custom of hospitality in the face of danger, the Solar uses this Charm while citing the custom; even if the barbarian doesn’t care about his people’s customs, he treats the Solar’s request as though it is exploiting a minor Principle of “hospitality must be offered in the face of danger.” Attempting to use the Charm in the same way on a Guild merchant from Nexus would be fruitless, however, as neither Nexus nor the Guild practices any hospitality customs.
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Currently Writing: Exalted Third Edition, W20: Book of the Wyrm

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Day_Dreamer
Wednesday, January 30, 2013 6:13:59 AM(UTC)

Well, I can't really comment on balance until we see new social rules, but this feels a bit underpowered, at least to me.

Dunno. Could be cool. Not feeling it as much as the last one.
glamourweaver
Wednesday, January 30, 2013 6:18:59 AM(UTC)

So does it work to create a law with Taboo Inflicting Diatribe, and even without some officials present to actively enforce it, you can invoke it as a social principle to be followed with SIM?
Prometheus878
Wednesday, January 30, 2013 6:19:33 AM(UTC)

Ah! First!... or rather... third... anyway:

You would not part an old man from his walking stick?
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Mizu005
Wednesday, January 30, 2013 6:24:00 AM(UTC)

Day_Dreamer wrote:
Well, I can't really comment on balance until we see new social rules, but this feels a bit underpowered, at least to me.

Dunno. Could be cool. Not feeling it as much as the last one.



I'm guessing that Principles are a big deal in social interaction, so forcing someone into having a minor principle based on their culture even when they might not personally give a fig is probably a big deal.


My only complaint is that I'm guessing most cultures are not going to come with a huge list of their practices, so it will be up to the ST if they have a custom that you can exploit.

Then again, dramatic scenery editing worked for stunts in 2E, so I don't see why a player couldn't be given a bit of leeway in making up cultural standards. So long as you guys really make sure that ST's know that Chicanery-no is a thing in the ST chapters and they are well within their rights to say that the barbarian tribe attacking them does not have a custom telling them to commit suicide if a stranger asks nicely (maybe say they have a custom allowing anyone to challenge the chieftain 1 on 1 for leadership of the tribe?).
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Phoenix_Kensai
Wednesday, January 30, 2013 6:25:46 AM(UTC)

I'm definitely liking what I see of the way these new Charms are designed to encourage interesting play, rather than bypassing it entirely.

A minor Intimacy doesn't exactly sound like a big deal, especially for a Solar Charm, but I'm curious what it means in the new social influence system. I imagine a free Intimacy can be pretty handy, even if it's only minor.
Like dumping glue on a log.
Eternal_King
Wednesday, January 30, 2013 6:26:20 AM(UTC)
Day_Dreamer wrote:
Well, I can't really comment on balance until we see new social rules, but this feels a bit underpowered, at least to me.

Dunno. Could be cool. Not feeling it as much as the last one.


Yeah, something like that.

It feels like a minor trick.

Quote:
he social action treats the individual as having a minor Intimacy dedicated to that social element, even if he doesn’t.



How strong is minor intimacy and is it difficult to act against it?
Stephenls
Wednesday, January 30, 2013 6:26:52 AM(UTC)

I invoke the right of parlay!
CrownedSun
Wednesday, January 30, 2013 6:27:20 AM(UTC)

Is it a minor Intimacy, or a minor Principle? Or are those the same thing??
Holden
Wednesday, January 30, 2013 6:28:35 AM(UTC)

Phoenix_Kensai wrote:
I'm definitely liking what I see of the way these new Charms are designed to encourage interesting play, rather than bypassing it entirely.

A minor Intimacy doesn't exactly sound like a big deal, especially for a Solar Charm, but I'm curious what it means in the new social influence system. I imagine a free Intimacy can be pretty handy, even if it's only minor.


Put it this way: When you get to the "I make a roll to make him do what I want him to do" part of the social system, if you have no Intimacies to play with, you can't do much more than bum bus money off of someone.*



*Barring threats or bribes.
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Verzio
Wednesday, January 30, 2013 6:30:31 AM(UTC)

So, a Solar can keep 71-hour Ahmed from cutting his head off . . .
"De gustibus non est disputandum," she declaimed.
"Sez you," I replied.
CycloneJoker
Wednesday, January 30, 2013 6:30:50 AM(UTC)

I'm a little underwhelmed by this one too. It IS, however, an Essence 2 charm, so I can allow for a BIT of weakness here, plus somebody mentioned that you can synergize it with TID for comedy gold anyway.

Still, I hope this one has a higher-Essence upgrade or follow-on that, say, lets you invoke customs or principals the target's nationality/tribe/whatever doesn't actually HAVE.
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Eldagusto
Wednesday, January 30, 2013 6:31:05 AM(UTC)

Now I want the intimacy mechanics!emotion-4.gif

Day_Dreamer wrote:
Well, I can't really comment on balance until we see new social rules, but this feels a bit underpowered, at least to me.

Dunno. Could be cool. Not feeling it as much as the last one.


I don't know things like forming intimacies at a breath are really powerful, and even though this one doesn't form intimacies permanently they effectively allow you to treat the subjects as if they had intimacies you could exploit.


I do like this whole specific exploitation of social situations angle. The fact that you need to game the system of cultures is intriguing to me. It really seems like Charm paradigms like this bridge the gap between fluff and crunch in a way that I like in flexible magics (like sphere magic and such).
Mizu005
Wednesday, January 30, 2013 6:33:20 AM(UTC)

Stephenls wrote:
I invoke the right of parlay!



I was more thinking of the recent episode of Star Wars: The Clone Wars
But Pirates of the Caribbean works just as well.

Honestly, I like this one, a lot. It really makes me feel like a quick witted smooth talker that knows the right buttons to press to get an advantage.
Behold the almighty chow chow!



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Hand-of-Omega
Wednesday, January 30, 2013 6:34:39 AM(UTC)

Day_Dreamer wrote:
Well, I can't really comment on balance until we see new social rules, but this feels a bit underpowered, at least to me.

Dunno. Could be cool. Not feeling it as much as the last one.


Yeah. Almost seems like something one could just do with Excellencies...

Unless Excellencies are not a part of the new system...?

Dexemotion-11.gif
"Exalted is in many ways like Call of Cthulhu. Both can be set in a largely negative world and both contain mind-numbing horrors whose gentlest sneeze could kill half of Malaysia. The difference is the scope of fear; humans fear Cthulhu, Cthulhu fears the Exalted."

--Overheard on an rpg.net forum
Phoenix_Kensai
Wednesday, January 30, 2013 6:35:04 AM(UTC)

Holden wrote:
Phoenix_Kensai wrote:
I'm definitely liking what I see of the way these new Charms are designed to encourage interesting play, rather than bypassing it entirely.

A minor Intimacy doesn't exactly sound like a big deal, especially for a Solar Charm, but I'm curious what it means in the new social influence system. I imagine a free Intimacy can be pretty handy, even if it's only minor.


Put it this way: When you get to the "I make a roll to make him do what I want him to do" part of the social system, if you have no Intimacies to play with, you can't do much more than bum bus money off of someone.*



*Barring threats or bribes.

Interesting. And... definitely more important than I expected. I can see this Charm being pretty useful, if situational.

...But now I find myself wanting to play a Solar hobo who goes around using social Charms for petty things like getting free drinks or the aforementioned bumming bus money off of someone.
Like dumping glue on a log.
Hand-of-Omega
Wednesday, January 30, 2013 6:36:13 AM(UTC)

Eldagusto wrote:
Now I want the intimacy mechanics!emotion-4.gif

Day_Dreamer wrote:
Well, I can't really comment on balance until we see new social rules, but this feels a bit underpowered, at least to me.

Dunno. Could be cool. Not feeling it as much as the last one.


I don't know things like forming intimacies at a breath are really powerful, and even though this one doesn't form intimacies permanently they effectively allow you to treat the subjects as if they had intimacies you could exploit.


I do like this whole specific exploitation of social situations angle. The fact that you need to game the system of cultures is intriguing to me. It really seems like Charm paradigms like this bridge the gap between fluff and crunch in a way that I like in flexible magics (like sphere magic and such).


Can't we have just ONE nice dinner without you bringing up Sphere Magic?!

Dexemotion-4.gif
"Exalted is in many ways like Call of Cthulhu. Both can be set in a largely negative world and both contain mind-numbing horrors whose gentlest sneeze could kill half of Malaysia. The difference is the scope of fear; humans fear Cthulhu, Cthulhu fears the Exalted."

--Overheard on an rpg.net forum
hidajiremi
Wednesday, January 30, 2013 6:37:43 AM(UTC)

"At the end of this night, I shall kill you," said the Sultan.

"But first, let me tell you a story," replied Scheherezade.



Me likey.
"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity." -Hanlon's Razor
Hand-of-Omega
Wednesday, January 30, 2013 6:38:37 AM(UTC)

Holden wrote:
It's THAT TIME!

No, not Adventure Time.

...

Well okay, it can be Adventure Time too. BEHOLD THE ADVENTURES OF A SOLAR, ABYSSAL, AND LUNAR!




Wait, what the--? WHAT EPISODE IS THIS??emotion-8.gif

Dex
"Exalted is in many ways like Call of Cthulhu. Both can be set in a largely negative world and both contain mind-numbing horrors whose gentlest sneeze could kill half of Malaysia. The difference is the scope of fear; humans fear Cthulhu, Cthulhu fears the Exalted."

--Overheard on an rpg.net forum
Eldagusto
Wednesday, January 30, 2013 6:41:01 AM(UTC)

I like it because it allows you to pull the old social leverage on beings that would on most days be Sociopaths nothing to loose Johnny's. The Right to Parley reference is so insanely spot on!


Hand-of-Omega wrote:
Eldagusto wrote:
Now I want the intimacy mechanics!emotion-4.gif

Day_Dreamer wrote:
Well, I can't really comment on balance until we see new social rules, but this feels a bit underpowered, at least to me.

Dunno. Could be cool. Not feeling it as much as the last one.


I don't know things like forming intimacies at a breath are really powerful, and even though this one doesn't form intimacies permanently they effectively allow you to treat the subjects as if they had intimacies you could exploit.


I do like this whole specific exploitation of social situations angle. The fact that you need to game the system of cultures is intriguing to me. It really seems like Charm paradigms like this bridge the gap between fluff and crunch in a way that I like in flexible magics (like sphere magic and such).


Can't we have just ONE nice dinner without you bringing up Sphere Magic?!

Dexemotion-4.gif



Well maybe if you took me out to eat every once and a while!emotion-9.gif
Mizu005
Wednesday, January 30, 2013 6:41:05 AM(UTC)

It says sneak peek, so I am guessing the full episode hasn't aired yet.

Edit:Ha, I just realized, they posted a sneak peek Adventure Time clip in a sneak peek topic about 3E charms :P
Behold the almighty chow chow!



Exalted Whose Name is Carved in Leaves of Jade
John Mørke
Wednesday, January 30, 2013 6:42:16 AM(UTC)

I could hit targets before I bought Accuracy Without Distance. Worst. Charm. Ever. emotion-5.gif

Exalted Developer
Currently writing: Exalted Third Edition; W20: Book of the Wyrm
Verzio
Wednesday, January 30, 2013 6:44:20 AM(UTC)

"That's right, Killfuck Soulshitter, you don't care . . . but your great-grandfather's clan did! And I'm gonna exploit that!"
"De gustibus non est disputandum," she declaimed.
"Sez you," I replied.
Hand-of-Omega
Wednesday, January 30, 2013 6:45:13 AM(UTC)

Mizu005 wrote:
It says sneak peek, so I am guessing the full episode hasn't aired yet.


I know someone who's going to be VERY HAPPY to see Fiona return!

Anywho, I am glad that we're getting sneak peeks at Social Influence charms first! It really says that they're working on what was one of the problematic areas of the system last time around. Hopefully, we'll get to see some Bureaucracy Charms soon!emotion-5.gif

Dex
"Exalted is in many ways like Call of Cthulhu. Both can be set in a largely negative world and both contain mind-numbing horrors whose gentlest sneeze could kill half of Malaysia. The difference is the scope of fear; humans fear Cthulhu, Cthulhu fears the Exalted."

--Overheard on an rpg.net forum
Kukla
Wednesday, January 30, 2013 6:45:24 AM(UTC)

This is pretty bloody neato.
Verzio wrote:
"That's right, Killfuck Soulshitter, you don't care . . . but your great-grandfather's clan did! And I'm gonna exploit that!"

And this just makes it better. NO ONE IS ABOVE THE CODE
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Odd_Canuck
Wednesday, January 30, 2013 6:51:58 AM(UTC)

Verzio wrote:
So, a Solar can keep 71-hour Ahmed from cutting his head off . . .

only for 72 hours.

And this sounds like ideal stunt fodder for social stunts. Much as your ST would go "yeah, it's reasonable there is a chandelier there, and the rubber band on the book case and the bottle of rum in the collection by the bar, the house maid of dubious virtue... okay, yeah I'll give that to you too... now what are you going to do?" and get an awesome stunt involving blinding the guards with a splash of rum, spinning rubber bands into a bungee cord and escaping out the window by swinging on a light and grabbing a house maid and bottle of rum on the way, so too could your player go "Okay, the approaching storm is bad, and guild isn't all noble and stuff, they're all about money... wait, how about this: There is a tradition that as long as you are negotiating trade matters, you give food and shelter to the person you are dealing with? Good! I'll spend three days negotiating the logging rights around my village with him, giving Brenda's character a chance to seduce the priestess."

"... Hey baby, wanna help me... tune my mandolin?"

And that's the story of how we ended up clearcutting a small forest for a pile of Guild coin and making an immaculate shrine.
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BrilliantRain
Wednesday, January 30, 2013 6:54:03 AM(UTC)

Stephenls wrote:
I invoke the right of parlay!


Verzio wrote:
So, a Solar can keep 71-hour Ahmed from cutting his head off . . .


hidajiremi wrote:
"At the end of this night, I shall kill you," said the Sultan.

"But first, let me tell you a story," replied Scheherezade.



Me likey.


At first I was a bit underwhelmed too, but these posts reminded me just how cool/useful this sort of thing can be, especially since we haven't seen the new social rules to know just how useful the intimacy actually is.*

Especially, especially, when you figure that the charm user can probably stunt a cool sounding cultural norm for this to key off of.


* Though Holden's post indicates that this might well be a very big deal, if you're dealing with an unknown quantity and/or someone who is completely indifferent to you.
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Day_Dreamer
Wednesday, January 30, 2013 6:55:49 AM(UTC)

John Mørke wrote:
I could hit targets before I bought Accuracy Without Distance. Worst. Charm. Ever. emotion-5.gif



Eh...

Its just... how to put this.

This feels like something a skilled mortal should be able to do. If someone shows up on my doorstep unannounced and asks to be let in, I'll shut the door. If they bring up the fact that it is Passover and I'm supposed to let them in, even though I'm an Atheist I still will. My culture is a strong part of me, even though all of its traditions are not.

If it was a charm, I would imagine it as a Dragon-Blooded charm. Part of the fun of Solar charms was their over-the-top nature, even at E2. The E2 socialize charms let you make everyone in a room love you. Or believe that someone was evil.

They were things that, when I first went through the Core, I wanted all of them. They were cool on their own. Even without knowing what any of the numbers or names meant.
Thief-of-Faces
Wednesday, January 30, 2013 6:56:11 AM(UTC)

Hmm, not much at first sight. But with a devious player and a few stunts, this could be extremely powerful.
Emeris
Wednesday, January 30, 2013 6:58:12 AM(UTC)

Hrm. Would it be wrong in any way (such as against the theme of the power scaling or Exalts in general etc. etc.) to have an upgrade charm/repurchase that made the Intimacy more major (whatever the proper mechanical term is for a more significant intimacy)? Possibly after one that made a character treat the group's Policy (Or other defining trait(s)) a more significant intimacy first?
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John Mørke
Wednesday, January 30, 2013 7:01:11 AM(UTC)

We're already thinking about buffing the Intimacy just based on gut reaction from the readers. You guys are really very perceptive and helpful even without the context of the rules.
Exalted Developer
Currently writing: Exalted Third Edition; W20: Book of the Wyrm
Eldagusto
Wednesday, January 30, 2013 7:03:04 AM(UTC)

Day_Dreamer wrote:
John Mørke wrote:
I could hit targets before I bought Accuracy Without Distance. Worst. Charm. Ever. emotion-5.gif



Eh...

Its just... how to put this.

This feels like something a skilled mortal should be able to do. If someone shows up on my doorstep unannounced and asks to be let in, I'll shut the door. If they bring up the fact that it is Passover and I'm supposed to let them in, even though I'm an Atheist I still will. My culture is a strong part of me, even though all of its traditions are not.

If it was a charm, I would imagine it as a Dragon-Blooded charm. Part of the fun of Solar charms was their over-the-top nature, even at E2. The E2 socialize charms let you make everyone in a room love you. Or believe that someone was evil.

They were things that, when I first went through the Core, I wanted all of them. They were cool on their own. Even without knowing what any of the numbers or names meant.


Well what you are describing there is begging, and that certainly will work, at least on good Samaritans and such.

What the charm does is it magically gives you social leverage on anyone that is related to such a custom. So it won't work to say "Frankenstein you can't go to Octoberfest without any Pants", because Frankenstein doesn't acknowledge pants as any sort of Culture, he just shambled and knew fire was bad. But you can go to Dr. Evil and say "hey... you can't just shoot me in the head. I know its easier but what would your Professor at Evil Medical school think if you killed me without telling me your plan first."

Mortals can beg, but they need to stunt situations to give them social leverage that isn't there. Charms can just connect the dots making it a line so someone that just recognizes a custom becomes someone who holds it dear.
Eternal_King
Wednesday, January 30, 2013 7:05:11 AM(UTC)
Day_Dreamer wrote:
John Mørke wrote:
I could hit targets before I bought Accuracy Without Distance. Worst. Charm. Ever. emotion-5.gif



Eh...

Its just... how to put this.

This feels like something a skilled mortal should be able to do. If someone shows up on my doorstep unannounced and asks to be let in, I'll shut the door. If they bring up the fact that it is Passover and I'm supposed to let them in, even though I'm an Atheist I still will. My culture is a strong part of me, even though all of its traditions are not.

If it was a charm, I would imagine it as a Dragon-Blooded charm. Part of the fun of Solar charms was their over-the-top nature, even at E2. The E2 socialize charms let you make everyone in a room love you. Or believe that someone was evil.

They were things that, when I first went through the Core, I wanted all of them. They were cool on their own. Even without knowing what any of the numbers or names meant.



Yeah.

That feels like a neat trick.
Like something that is useful, but not really powerful, something like a minor advantage.

You can kill with AWD at one mile.
This sounds like it's giving you an ability to load your bow with an arrow, not to make it fly.
Eldagusto
Wednesday, January 30, 2013 7:05:41 AM(UTC)

John Mørke wrote:
We're already thinking about buffing the Intimacy just based on gut reaction from the readers. You guys are really very perceptive and helpful even without the context of the rules.


Well of Course! Exalted Forum University has graduates such as Holden, The Demented One and many more! We are a real prestigious institution.
Mizu005
Wednesday, January 30, 2013 7:05:55 AM(UTC)

Quote:


This feels like something a skilled mortal should be able to do. If someone shows up on my doorstep unannounced and asks to be let in, I'll shut the door. If they bring up the fact that it is Passover and I'm supposed to let them in, even though I'm an Atheist I still will. My culture is a strong part of me, even though all of its traditions are not.


You don't follow all your cultural traditions, I'm willing to bet. The fact that you can point to one that you would honor even though it doesn't make sense doesn't change that.

Take me, for example. I live in the ass end of the boonies in Eastern Kentucky. It goes without saying that we have some less then savory traditions that are appalling to anyone who isn't a racist ass hole. If a random person walks up to me on the street and tried to get me to do something based on those traditions, I would probably deck them. But this charm would give me an intimacy towards those traditions that I don't normally have.
Behold the almighty chow chow!



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Eldagusto
Wednesday, January 30, 2013 7:11:52 AM(UTC)

Mizu005 wrote:
Quote:


This feels like something a skilled mortal should be able to do. If someone shows up on my doorstep unannounced and asks to be let in, I'll shut the door. If they bring up the fact that it is Passover and I'm supposed to let them in, even though I'm an Atheist I still will. My culture is a strong part of me, even though all of its traditions are not.


You don't follow all your cultural traditions, I'm willing to bet. The fact that you can point to one that you would honor even though it doesn't make sense doesn't change that.

Take me, for example. I live in the ass end of the boonies in Eastern Kentucky. It goes without saying that we have some less then savory traditions that are appalling to anyone who isn't a racist ass hole. If a random person walks up to me on the street and tried to get me to do something based on those traditions, I would probably deck them. But this charm would give me an intimacy towards those traditions that I don't normally have.

Wow that is a real excellent example that I didn't immediately think of!

See we are already thinking up cool uses for the charm and we don't even have the damn system yet! That's how you know its good.emotion-5.gif
John Mørke
Wednesday, January 30, 2013 7:15:03 AM(UTC)

Eternal_King wrote:
Day_Dreamer wrote:
John Mørke wrote:
I could hit targets before I bought Accuracy Without Distance. Worst. Charm. Ever. emotion-5.gif



Eh...

Its just... how to put this.

This feels like something a skilled mortal should be able to do. If someone shows up on my doorstep unannounced and asks to be let in, I'll shut the door. If they bring up the fact that it is Passover and I'm supposed to let them in, even though I'm an Atheist I still will. My culture is a strong part of me, even though all of its traditions are not.

If it was a charm, I would imagine it as a Dragon-Blooded charm. Part of the fun of Solar charms was their over-the-top nature, even at E2. The E2 socialize charms let you make everyone in a room love you. Or believe that someone was evil.

They were things that, when I first went through the Core, I wanted all of them. They were cool on their own. Even without knowing what any of the numbers or names meant.



Yeah.

That feels like a neat trick.
Like something that is useful, but not really powerful, something like a minor advantage.

You can kill with AWD at one mile.
This sounds like it's giving you an ability to load your bow with an arrow, not to make it fly.


If a neat trick lets you go knocking on doors of houses belonging to the Taliban without getting you murdered, then I'll take a neat trick. Creation isn't your neighborhood or anything like it.

Exalted Developer
Currently writing: Exalted Third Edition; W20: Book of the Wyrm
Stephenls
Wednesday, January 30, 2013 7:18:19 AM(UTC)

John Mørke wrote:
Eternal_King wrote:
Day_Dreamer wrote:
John Mørke wrote:
I could hit targets before I bought Accuracy Without Distance. Worst. Charm. Ever. emotion-5.gif



Eh...

Its just... how to put this.

This feels like something a skilled mortal should be able to do. If someone shows up on my doorstep unannounced and asks to be let in, I'll shut the door. If they bring up the fact that it is Passover and I'm supposed to let them in, even though I'm an Atheist I still will. My culture is a strong part of me, even though all of its traditions are not.

If it was a charm, I would imagine it as a Dragon-Blooded charm. Part of the fun of Solar charms was their over-the-top nature, even at E2. The E2 socialize charms let you make everyone in a room love you. Or believe that someone was evil.

They were things that, when I first went through the Core, I wanted all of them. They were cool on their own. Even without knowing what any of the numbers or names meant.



Yeah.

That feels like a neat trick.
Like something that is useful, but not really powerful, something like a minor advantage.

You can kill with AWD at one mile.
This sounds like it's giving you an ability to load your bow with an arrow, not to make it fly.


If a neat trick lets you go knocking on doors of houses belonging to the Taliban without getting you murdered, then I'll take a neat trick. Creation isn't your neighborhood or anything like it.



When you put it like that, the degree to which it's useful is much more apparent. Creation is not a nice place.

(OTOH, how many groups actually run Creation as arbitrarily and unpleasantly violent and resource-scarce as Earth in the past?)
Day_Dreamer
Wednesday, January 30, 2013 7:18:57 AM(UTC)

Eldagusto wrote:
You can go to Dr. Evil and say "hey... you can't just shoot me in the head. I know its easier but what would your Professor at Evil Medical school think if you killed me without telling me your plan first."

Mortals can beg, but they need to stunt situations to give them social leverage that isn't there. Charms can just connect the dots making it a line so someone that just recognizes a custom becomes someone who holds it dear.

That's exactly it though. The above example is something I think everyone should be able to do. And even if you were an Exalt, you still needed to stunt it, because you need to make up a reason why they should tell you their plans.

We haven't seen the social system yet, so maybe intimacies are super-limited in number and this is actually really powerful, but I feel like if you invoke a taboo from the culture someone belongs to, it'll get you a foot in the door regardless.

Just doesn't feel very epic. Might be practical, but it doesn't compare to me walking around a party talking about how I'm the King of Zentaru, and then using Wide Eyed Courtier to make everyone believe it when the real King of Zentaru shows up.
Thief-of-Faces
Wednesday, January 30, 2013 7:24:06 AM(UTC)

Does the Mandate of Heaven count as a social element of Yu-Shan? Or better yet, the entire Divine Order?
Eldagusto
Wednesday, January 30, 2013 7:24:15 AM(UTC)

Stephenls wrote:
John Mørke wrote:
Eternal_King wrote:
Day_Dreamer wrote:
John Mørke wrote:
I could hit targets before I bought Accuracy Without Distance. Worst. Charm. Ever. emotion-5.gif



Eh...

Its just... how to put this.

This feels like something a skilled mortal should be able to do. If someone shows up on my doorstep unannounced and asks to be let in, I'll shut the door. If they bring up the fact that it is Passover and I'm supposed to let them in, even though I'm an Atheist I still will. My culture is a strong part of me, even though all of its traditions are not.

If it was a charm, I would imagine it as a Dragon-Blooded charm. Part of the fun of Solar charms was their over-the-top nature, even at E2. The E2 socialize charms let you make everyone in a room love you. Or believe that someone was evil.

They were things that, when I first went through the Core, I wanted all of them. They were cool on their own. Even without knowing what any of the numbers or names meant.



Yeah.

That feels like a neat trick.
Like something that is useful, but not really powerful, something like a minor advantage.

You can kill with AWD at one mile.
This sounds like it's giving you an ability to load your bow with an arrow, not to make it fly.


If a neat trick lets you go knocking on doors of houses belonging to the Taliban without getting you murdered, then I'll take a neat trick. Creation isn't your neighborhood or anything like it.



When you put it like that, the degree to which it's useful is much more apparent. Creation is not a nice place.

(OTOH, how many groups actually run Creation as arbitrarily and unpleasantly violent and resource-scarce as Earth in the past?)


Yes, but the resource scarcity can very on what is concentrated on. But over all foreigners aren't too welcome in most neighborhoods. They got a hoot out of that in my first game when everyone was from the West except for that "Northerner".
Black Paper Moon
Wednesday, January 30, 2013 7:25:36 AM(UTC)

In Ex2 I would model this (exploiting someone's customs) by:
(i) creating a Charm which imposes a new Intimacy that is culturally-appopriate, or else reinforces an existing Intimacy that is culturally shared;
(ii) creating a Charm which compels behaviour aligned with an existing Intimacy.

Skillful Imposition Method method is narrower, shorter-term and has a smaller narrative impact than the above. It's shorter-term because you don't create or reinforce an Intimacy. The effect works in the here-and-now: for this social action, your counterpart is treated as having a minor Intimacy. It has a smaller narrative impact because you're not compelling any behaviour; SIM simply gives you a social combat advantage.

Based on my Ex2-calibrated intuition, this Charm feels too narrow and too expensive to use. If Ex3 social Charms in general are more specific (and this may not be a bad thing!), the Charm's scope may be fine. I still have trouble swallowing a 6m cost that does little more than give you an Intimacy (a minor Intimacy, even) to exploit. That feels like paying a lot for a pretty basic effect that is also niche.


Tentative comments on balance aside, the general feel of the Charm (encouraging clever tactical use of an opponent's preconceptions, beliefs, etc.) is cool. Social interaction is a lot more interesting when you're encouraged to scout and take advantage of an opponent's mental terrain to get your way than it is when you can simply impose your will by Lawgiver fiat.
Eternal_King
Wednesday, January 30, 2013 7:25:40 AM(UTC)
John Mørke wrote:


If a neat trick lets you go knocking on doors of houses belonging to the Taliban without getting you murdered, then I'll take a neat trick. Creation isn't your neighborhood or anything like it.



And what if the Taliban member have a major Intimacy (hate) about your kind of people?
Is this Charm more powerful than it?
Is it easy or hard to act against it?

Also, there are a lot of societies without such important customs regarding the social interactions.
Mizu005
Wednesday, January 30, 2013 7:27:30 AM(UTC)

Quote:

That's exactly it though. The above example is something I think everyone should be able to do. And even if you were an Exalt, you still needed to stunt it, because you need to make up a reason why they should tell you their plans.

We haven't seen the social system yet, so maybe intimacies are super-limited in number and this is actually really powerful, but I feel like if you invoke a taboo from the culture someone belongs to, it'll get you a foot in the door regardless.

Just doesn't feel very epic. Might be practical, but it doesn't compare to me walking around a party talking about how I'm the King of Zentaru, and then using Wide Eyed Courtier to make everyone believe it when the real King of Zentaru shows up.


Look at it this way, a mortal can bring up a tradition that benefits them and hope to hell that you give a damn. A solar can bring up a tradition that benefits them and make you give a damn.

So, take the Dr.Evil example you quoted. If a mortal tries that there is a very good chance that anyone who was going to ignore the villain code and kill you quickly without revealing their plan wont care what those 'incompetent fools' think. This charm will make him care and start a monologue about his plans while you use that extra time to slip our of your hand cuffs and deck him.

Behold the almighty chow chow!



Exalted Whose Name is Carved in Leaves of Jade
limaxophobiac
Wednesday, January 30, 2013 7:31:16 AM(UTC)
Neither of the Charms that have been previewed fill me with confidence. They're both painfully specific, this one f.ex. requires that you know the targets culture (both IC and OOC) well enough to know what kinds of behaviour it encourages (making it kind of a pain for people who aren't that interested in reading up on every culture they encounter, and requiring the writers to actually go into some dept on the social mores of every culture in creation*), and for said behaviour to actually be usefull for the solar to encourage, TID is specific to one kind of command (make a law) to one specific target (a leader), and further specifies that the leader in question has to like you, and then it still required the GM to agree that the command is actually to the peoples noticable benefit for it to stay in place when you leave.

*Edit: Also requires the GM to have read the text the same way, so that you agree on what said cultures cultural mores are for you to call on them.
Eternal_King
Wednesday, January 30, 2013 7:32:19 AM(UTC)

Black Paper Moon wrote:
I still have trouble swallowing a 6m cost that does little more than give you an Intimacy (a minor Intimacy, even) to exploit. That feels like paying a lot for a pretty basic effect.


6 motes are a matter of second concern.

It feels like a too narrow use for a full-cost Charm buy.


I actually want varied experience costs for Charms in the 3rd edition.

It may give much more freedom to the Charm creation.

You'll be able to create "neat tricks" and more broader things without a painful need to balance one against another.

Day_Dreamer
Wednesday, January 30, 2013 7:33:47 AM(UTC)

Mizu005 wrote:
Quote:

That's exactly it though. The above example is something I think everyone should be able to do. And even if you were an Exalt, you still needed to stunt it, because you need to make up a reason why they should tell you their plans.

We haven't seen the social system yet, so maybe intimacies are super-limited in number and this is actually really powerful, but I feel like if you invoke a taboo from the culture someone belongs to, it'll get you a foot in the door regardless.

Just doesn't feel very epic. Might be practical, but it doesn't compare to me walking around a party talking about how I'm the King of Zentaru, and then using Wide Eyed Courtier to make everyone believe it when the real King of Zentaru shows up.


Look at it this way, a mortal can bring up a tradition that benefits them and hope to hell that you give a damn. A solar can bring up a tradition that benefits them and make you give a damn.

So, take the Dr.Evil example you quoted. If a mortal tries that there is a very good chance that anyone who was going to ignore the villain code and kill you quickly without revealing their plan wont care what those 'incompetent fools' think. This charm will make him care and start a monologue about his plans while you use that extra time to slip our of your hand cuffs and deck him.


Except.... it doesn't do that. It has no compelling aspects to it. It gives you them a minor intimacy, whatever that means. It is then up to you to convince them based on that.

I can imagine it being useful, don't get me wrong. On the other hand, it isn't cool, in the same way a lot of the 2E socialize charms were.
Xefas
Wednesday, January 30, 2013 7:35:43 AM(UTC)
It sounds useful, but not quite up to the insane power of 2nd Ed Solar Social Charms. Which I think is fine. This is an Essence 2 Charm. Gods, what if we had room to grow inside of a single tier of Essence? Like, if I wanted to upgrade an effect, I don't have to go up an Essence dot (or two), because the system had some reasonable degree of scaling to it.

I'm not a big fan of the hyper-granular fiddly little parcel delivery system for power that Exalted has in its Charms. But if the developers are committed to fiddly parcels, I'm okay with there being some scaling from dealing with Minor Intimacies, to Moderate Intimacies, and so on, rather than starting out with my Essence 2 Charms hitting whole directions with Cosmos-Fellating Intimacies, or whatever the higher levels are called.
Mizu005
Wednesday, January 30, 2013 7:37:06 AM(UTC)

Quote:

And what if the Taliban member have a major Intimacy (hate) about your kind of people?
Is this Charm more powerful than it?
Is it easy or hard to act against it?

Also, there are a lot of societies without such important customs regarding the social interactions.


It only creates a minor intimacy, which I am guessing is weaker then a major intimacy. So, it isn't looking good for you there.


In which case this charm isn't worth much, but the same can be said about a melee charm when you have no melee weapons.

Quote:


Except.... it doesn't do that. It has no compelling aspects to it. It gives you them a minor intimacy, whatever that means. It is then up to you to convince them based on that.


Holden pretty much flat out said that an intimacy is a huge deal in social combat if you want to get anything major out of another character through social combat.


Also, something I think a lot of people need to keep in mind, this is a low essence charm. Going by the prerequisite, it wouldn't surprise me if this was only one charm deep into this branch of the socialize tree as well.
Behold the almighty chow chow!



Exalted Whose Name is Carved in Leaves of Jade
Eternal_King
Wednesday, January 30, 2013 7:40:29 AM(UTC)
Mizu005 wrote:
Quote:

And what if the Taliban member have a major Intimacy (hate) about your kind of people?
Is this Charm more powerful than it?
Is it easy or hard to act against it?

Also, there are a lot of societies without such important customs regarding the social interactions.


It only creates a minor intimacy, which I am guessing is weaker then a major intimacy. So, it isn't looking good for you there.


In which case this charm isn't worth much, but the same can be said about a melee charm when you have no melee weapons.


And it is a pretty shitty situation, isn't it?
I've actually got my weapon - it's my tongue and my knowledge of customs.
My Solar Charm just failed with the right weapon.
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